Why did God make so many idiots?
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13-02-2013, 05:30 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:27 PM)Zat Wrote:  Ohmygod -- I created a monster!

nineteenth page -- holy shit!
Nothing screams "LOGICA, YOU HAVE AMAZING RESOLUTION" more than the fact that it is only the 4th page for me.

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13-02-2013, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2013 05:57 PM by kim.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Kingsy can have all the faith he wants. He's not shoving it down my throat. He understands the difference between faith and belief. He understands that not everyone has it.

I believe a ton of shit... but I may not have faith in any of it... in fact, I usually don't.

Kingsy, understands "bible world" is different than real world. The fact that he feels compelled by that wacky faith of his, to use bible world inspiration to help him make personal decisions for his own life... well, fuck... that's his problem.

He has a firm grasp on reality, uses logic, reason, ethics and empathy in dealing with his fellow human being... little more is required of anyone for me to call them friend. Shy

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13-02-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:34 PM)kim Wrote:  Kingsy can have all the faith he wants. He's not shoving it down my throat. He understands the difference between faith and belief. He understands that not everyone has it.

I believe a ton of shit... but I may not have faith in any of it... in fact, I usually don't.

Kingsy, understands "bible world" is different than real world. The fact that he feels compelled by that wacky faith of his, to use bible world inspiration to help him make personal decisions for his own life... well, fuck... that's his problem.

He has a firm grasp on reality, uses logic, reason, ethics and empathy in dealing with his fellow human being... little more is required of anyone for me to call them friend. Shy
Well I disagree, Kingsy is probably going to have kids if he/she hasnt already. Kingsy, will just spread the nonsense, society should be based on factual evidence and not gut feelings. This guy gets to vote, see what happened when Bush was in office? he banned stem cell research. Sorry, I am an atheist...but also an anti theist. YOUR FAITHS (OR BELIEFS WITHOUT EVIDENCE) MEAN NOTHING.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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13-02-2013, 06:04 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 06:02 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  
(13-02-2013 05:34 PM)kim Wrote:  Kingsy can have all the faith he wants. He's not shoving it down my throat. He understands the difference between faith and belief. He understands that not everyone has it.

I believe a ton of shit... but I may not have faith in any of it... in fact, I usually don't.

Kingsy, understands "bible world" is different than real world. The fact that he feels compelled by that wacky faith of his, to use bible world inspiration to help him make personal decisions for his own life... well, fuck... that's his problem.

He has a firm grasp on reality, uses logic, reason, ethics and empathy in dealing with his fellow human being... little more is required of anyone for me to call them friend. Shy
Well I disagree, Kingsy is probably going to have kids if he/she hasnt already. Kingsy, will just spread the nonsense, society should be based on factual evidence and not gut feelings. This guy gets to vote, see what happened when Bush was in office? he banned stem cell research. Sorry, I am an atheist...but also an anti theist. YOUR FAITHS (OR BELIEFS WITHOUT EVIDENCE) MEAN NOTHING.
Nice sound assumptions about me based on fact and not generalizations.

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13-02-2013, 06:05 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2013 12:50 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:34 PM)kim Wrote:  Kingsy can have all the faith he wants. He's not shoving it down my throat. He understands the difference between faith and belief. He understands that not everyone has it.

I believe a ton of shit... but I may not have faith in any of it... in fact, I usually don't.

Kingsy, understands "bible world" is different than real world. The fact that he feels compelled by that wacky faith of his, to use bible world inspiration to help him make personal decisions for his own life... well, fuck... that's his problem.

He has a firm grasp on reality, uses logic, reason, ethics and empathy in dealing with his fellow human being... little more is required of anyone for me to call them friend. Shy
Even though he may not shove the bulging word of God down your throat, it does not negate the fact that his beliefs are ridiculously unsubstantiated and that they should be scrutinized.

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13-02-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 06:04 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-02-2013 06:02 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  Well I disagree, Kingsy is probably going to have kids if he/she hasnt already. Kingsy, will just spread the nonsense, society should be based on factual evidence and not gut feelings. This guy gets to vote, see what happened when Bush was in office? he banned stem cell research. Sorry, I am an atheist...but also an anti theist. YOUR FAITHS (OR BELIEFS WITHOUT EVIDENCE) MEAN NOTHING.
Nice sound assumptions about me based on fact and not generalizations.
The last assumption is great. You have a-no evidente my brotha.

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13-02-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
I was basing my comments on what kim said, I have no idea what you said. It isnt about you really its about what Kim said.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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13-02-2013, 06:33 PM
Re: RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?

Freewill cannot coexist with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If freewill exists, then God is subjugated to our whims and decisions and is hardly omnipotent. Even if you say that God is omniscient and therefore knows what we are going to do and predestines accordingly, that is still subjugated God to our future choice. In short, if we have freewill, then God cannot be omnipotent while being omniscient.

The Bible also states that we cannot choose God; God has to draw us to Himself.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Likewise, it says that those that aren't of God cannot know God (straight from Jesus). So, those that aren't of God can never hear from or choose God unless acted upon by God.

John 8:47
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”


The Bible is also clear about us being chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Christ's atonement was only meant for some.

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


God predestined, foreknew, and justified us for salvation.
Romans 8:28-33
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Now, before you throw out John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, or 2 Peter 3:9, I'll go ahead and address them.

The Greek words that are used are not an all inclusive "all". They are far from it. They are addressing either "types", "kinds", or specific "group".

ie - John 3:16
In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue.

It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people.

Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

In the Timothy verse it is talking about "types" of men... same goes for the Peter verse.

Now, as for having no freewill:

God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.


And, before you say, "But he chose to sin before God hardened his heart" read Romans 9:11-22

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


Pay attention to the red. There are no prerequisites for God's choice... it is all up to God. No one can do or say anything that affects God. He is sovereign and autonomous. We have no freewill to act outside of God's will. Since God's will is orchestrated by God, it is not our own; therefore, we have no freewill.

There is SO much evidence for election and the lack of freewill THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I mean... that's basically what the OT is about (God's chosen people... God's will... God's directions...). In the NT, it is blatantly spelled out by Jesus in John, by Paul, and by other authors.

The question isn't "where is the evidence of a lack of freewill" but where is the evidence that we have freewill?

Arminian belief is very shaky and is a slap in the face to God's sovereignty.

So, please, show me where there is evidence of freewill.

Any case of God asking questions about actions is a case for free will. Why ask Adam how he knows he's naked and how if God knew how beforehand.

Why be angry at people disobeying if it's known to be happening like with Onan. God tells him to do something he knows he won't do. That God either gives free will or isn't omnipotent.

The Bible is quite full of a non omnipotent non omniscient God. He suddenly "remembers" his covenant with Israel after his people were slaves for years.

In Judges Judah wins battles because God is with him.. As it says... Then suddenly he can't beat those in the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Somehow am issue was struck..

Gods either demonstrating non omniscience(and left,) non omnipotence,(can't beat chariots) or he is letting Judah win battles via his own accord with free will. God picking what battles to win/lose doesn't seem omnipotent.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you trust in Paul, let alone on free will. You said you take it that in John, only those with God can know of Gods ways. So who is Paul, a Christian persecutor who claims to have seen a vision and disagrees with other followers of the prophet. I don't see the value in any of this.

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13-02-2013, 11:07 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
King kind of reminds me of Rules Lawyers in table top RPGs. Whenever you try to do something complex in one of those games, that overtly involves or steps on a number of different rules, that's when it comes down to interpretation and adjudication. This will often involve multiple players looking up multiple parts of the rule books, with the ultimate decision as to how to resolve the issue left up to the game master.


But at the end of the day, nobody argues that gods and magic really exists outside of the game's rule books because of a d20 roll... Tongue

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13-02-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 06:08 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  I was basing my comments on what kim said, I have no idea what you said. It isnt about you really its about what Kim said.
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