Why did God make so many idiots?
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15-02-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:Your aforementioned verses do not show freewill. They show a perception of human choice.
That perception is so evident in thousands of verses that the Calvinist God is one who clearly misdirects and lies to men, giving them an illusion that they have free choice. Unlike every other doctrine of importance, only the truly knowledgeable can understand election. It's complicated and needlessly so, where Paul warns believers to simply their doctrines via a sort of Occam's Razor. And the Atheists see clearly that a predestinarian God is a monster who forces people to Hell. Predestination regarding salvation is rightly a horror to me. I'll believe, it, however, if that is what the scriptures teach.

I have only one (it was tough!) year of Greek under my belt and from a secular university. But I've read some detailed arguments from Greek scholars on both sides, people who are way beyond me in Greek, and I'm unconvinced. Not every free will scholar is a Greek ignoramus and you know this.

The context of John 6:44 is 6:45. If you can make an argument from the Hebrew scripture 6:45 is based on, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

And Proverbs and other places directs on how to handle and talk with the immoral, scoffers and unbelievers. The occasional rebuke is warranted. Smile

One more thing, your debate resolution upset me because you resolved to defend Augustine and Calvin. Augustine is a pillar of the ancient, hated Roman "church". He also taught that babies need to be baptized to escape Hell, another horror that has caused infinite suffering. Calvin did not exhibit the fruit of the spirit and was cruel to his theological enemies. He was, what, two years in Christ when he wrote his Institutes? And within, he is constantly praising Augustine. Fruit and root. These are not people I feel comfortable defending as true Christians, and their biases colored their theology in my understanding.

You can reply to me but I might just be predestined to believe in free will. Smile
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15-02-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'll believe, it, however, if that is what the scriptures teach.

Why? There is no evidence that the scriptures are anything more than stories.

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15-02-2013, 08:47 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Your aforementioned verses do not show freewill. They show a perception of human choice.
That perception is so evident in thousands of verses that the Calvinist God is one who clearly misdirects and lies to men, giving them an illusion that they have free choice. Unlike every other doctrine of importance, only the truly knowledgeable can understand election. It's complicated and needlessly so, where Paul warns believers to simply their doctrines via a sort of Occam's Razor. And the Atheists see clearly that a predestinarian God is a monster who forces people to Hell. Predestination regarding salvation is rightly a horror to me. I'll believe, it, however, if that is what the scriptures teach.

I have only one (it was tough!) year of Greek under my belt and from a secular university. But I've read some detailed arguments from Greek scholars on both sides, people who are way beyond me in Greek, and I'm unconvinced. Not every free will scholar is a Greek ignoramus and you know this.

The context of John 6:44 is 6:45. If you can make an argument from the Hebrew scripture 6:45 is based on, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

And Proverbs and other places directs on how to handle and talk with the immoral, scoffers and unbelievers. The occasional rebuke is warranted. Smile

One more thing, your debate resolution upset me because you resolved to defend Augustine and Calvin. Augustine is a pillar of the ancient, hated Roman "church". He also taught that babies need to be baptized to escape Hell, another horror that has caused infinite suffering. Calvin did not exhibit the fruit of the spirit and was cruel to his theological enemies. He was, what, two years in Christ when he wrote his Institutes? And within, he is constantly praising Augustine. Fruit and root. These are not people I feel comfortable defending as true Christians, and their biases colored their theology in my understanding.

You can reply to me but I might just be predestined to believe in free will. Smile
But, it's really not needlessly complicated.

If God is... you know what... I'm not doing this. God is either all powerful or not. If He's not, then we have freewill, if He is, then we don't. Pretty cut and dry.

Anyway, other points:

What the heck does the Hebrew of 6:45 have to do with anything? It basically says that those of God will be taught by God and be drawn by God. More evidence for election.

Also, I'm not defending Calvin and Augustine... I'm defending their position on the subject matter.

Maybe I'm just getting old and awry, but it's aggravating when someone tries to start a strawman debate.

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15-02-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
The bible should have a subtitle.

"You're going to see what you want to see, so fuck it."

Or at least have a disclaimer that says
"May lead to individuals taking the exact same book and even the exact same verses and coming up with completely opposite interpretations. This book is a work of fiction and should be taken as such. Now, go read Harry Potter."

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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15-02-2013, 08:52 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Your aforementioned verses do not show freewill. They show a perception of human choice.
That perception is so evident in thousands of verses that the Calvinist God is one who clearly misdirects and lies to men, giving them an illusion that they have free choice. Unlike every other doctrine of importance, only the truly knowledgeable can understand election. It's complicated and needlessly so, where Paul warns believers to simply their doctrines via a sort of Occam's Razor. And the Atheists see clearly that a predestinarian God is a monster who forces people to Hell. Predestination regarding salvation is rightly a horror to me. I'll believe, it, however, if that is what the scriptures teach.

I have only one (it was tough!) year of Greek under my belt and from a secular university. But I've read some detailed arguments from Greek scholars on both sides, people who are way beyond me in Greek, and I'm unconvinced. Not every free will scholar is a Greek ignoramus and you know this.

The context of John 6:44 is 6:45. If you can make an argument from the Hebrew scripture 6:45 is based on, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

And Proverbs and other places directs on how to handle and talk with the immoral, scoffers and unbelievers. The occasional rebuke is warranted. Smile

One more thing, your debate resolution upset me because you resolved to defend Augustine and Calvin. Augustine is a pillar of the ancient, hated Roman "church". He also taught that babies need to be baptized to escape Hell, another horror that has caused infinite suffering. Calvin did not exhibit the fruit of the spirit and was cruel to his theological enemies. He was, what, two years in Christ when he wrote his Institutes? And within, he is constantly praising Augustine. Fruit and root. These are not people I feel comfortable defending as true Christians, and their biases colored their theology in my understanding.

You can reply to me but I might just be predestined to believe in free will. Smile
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15-02-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:What the heck does the Hebrew of 6:45 have to do with anything? It basically says that those of God will be taught by God and be drawn by God. More evidence for election.

I get your point about the second half of the verse, but the first half is an OT quotation. We know that Jesus would allude to the OT to give a midrash on His own text, like quoting the Psalm where the Pharisees denied His triumphal entry, Jesus said "out of the mouths of the young praise" and the OT continues, "...And to silence His enemies." Jesus is pointing the careful reader to see what He is pressing home on Palm Sunday.

Now I ask you to refine your understanding with the OT quotation from John 6:45, since you gave me 6:44. I know 45 also looks like election. But quote says in Isaiah:

All your sons will be taught of the Lord;
And the well-being of your sons will be great.
“In righteousness you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;

This is the Messianic expectation of all Israel being saved as in Romans 11:26.

How can they all the sons be taught by God if they cannot hear God in their total depravity, without their total election of 100% of some, without prevenient grace. How can GOD, not man, teach them ALL if they all cannot hear...? It just seems like bad exegesis to say this John firms Calvinist election when the quotation embedded speaks of a time when all, not some, will be saved. But it's not the only example... not by far. (Almost) every time I read a predestination verse I look for context and I see free will and non-election verses.

For example, are you a five-point Calvinist?

We can say:

Israel was totally depraved, unconditionally elected, received limited atonement, was irresistibly drawn to God--but then Calvinists say Israel was cast off so Israel was not able to Persevere.

Either Israel is elect permanently and not temporarily and five-point Calvinism is a consistent doctrine or...

But if I knew how many points you held to I'd understand better. Thanks!
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15-02-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 11:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now I ask you to refine your understanding with the OT quotation from John 6:45, since you gave me 6:44. I know 45 also looks like election. But quote says in Isaiah:

All your sons will be taught of the Lord;
And the well-being of your sons will be great.
“In righteousness you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;

Check your Hebrew.

It honestly seems like you're just pulling stuff out of nowhere to make it say what you want it to say.

v13
Says that the following generations will be taught about God. It doesn't say anything else. They will simply be taught. Hebrew here.

v14
Says that they are going to be established in the Law... this is what the Hebrew says in regards to "righteousness". It is referring to the law.

Hebrew here. Look at the first definition. It references that Isaiah 54:14 is talking about "righteousness" in government.

Quote:This is the Messianic expectation of all Israel being saved as in Romans 11:26.

How can they all the sons be taught by God if they cannot hear God in their total depravity, without their total election of 100% of some, without prevenient grace. How can GOD, not man, teach them ALL if they all cannot hear...? It just seems like bad exegesis to say this John firms Calvinist election when the quotation embedded speaks of a time when all, not some, will be saved. But it's not the only example... not by far. (Almost) every time I read a predestination verse I look for context and I see free will and non-election verses.

Everything you said is irrelevant and unfounded. Again, it's talking about the governmental law of the land. This has nothing to do with them being of God or not being of God. It has nothing to do with them being able to hear God's will or not. The language plainly states that this is about government law, so your conjectures are without merit.

The people that aren't of God still cannot hear God, but this doesn't mean that they can't be taught and reared in the ways of Jewish law.

Quote:For example, are you a five-point Calvinist?

Yes.

Quote:We can say:

Israel was totally depraved, unconditionally elected, received limited atonement, was irresistibly drawn to God--but then Calvinists say Israel was cast off so Israel was not able to Persevere.

Either Israel is elect permanently and not temporarily and five-point Calvinism is a consistent doctrine or...

But if I knew how many points you held to I'd understand better. Thanks!

Israel =/= an individual

I can't believe you're even combining the two.

Israel was the chosen nation of God that He would protect and uplift. Not every single Jew was, is, or will be "saved". Salvation is based on the individual.

Not to sound crass, but you don't really have a solid grasp of election and predestination do you? I mean, have you actually studied it?

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15-02-2013, 03:51 PM
Re: RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 08:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  That perception is so evident in thousands of verses that the Calvinist God is one who clearly misdirects and lies to men, giving them an illusion that they have free choice. Unlike every other doctrine of importance, only the truly knowledgeable can understand election. It's complicated and needlessly so, where Paul warns believers to simply their doctrines via a sort of Occam's Razor. And the Atheists see clearly that a predestinarian God is a monster who forces people to Hell. Predestination regarding salvation is rightly a horror to me. I'll believe, it, however, if that is what the scriptures teach.

I have only one (it was tough!) year of Greek under my belt and from a secular university. But I've read some detailed arguments from Greek scholars on both sides, people who are way beyond me in Greek, and I'm unconvinced. Not every free will scholar is a Greek ignoramus and you know this.

The context of John 6:44 is 6:45. If you can make an argument from the Hebrew scripture 6:45 is based on, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

And Proverbs and other places directs on how to handle and talk with the immoral, scoffers and unbelievers. The occasional rebuke is warranted. Smile

One more thing, your debate resolution upset me because you resolved to defend Augustine and Calvin. Augustine is a pillar of the ancient, hated Roman "church". He also taught that babies need to be baptized to escape Hell, another horror that has caused infinite suffering. Calvin did not exhibit the fruit of the spirit and was cruel to his theological enemies. He was, what, two years in Christ when he wrote his Institutes? And within, he is constantly praising Augustine. Fruit and root. These are not people I feel comfortable defending as true Christians, and their biases colored their theology in my understanding.

You can reply to me but I might just be predestined to believe in free will. Smile
But, it's really not needlessly complicated.

If God is... you know what... I'm not doing this. God is either all powerful or not. If He's not, then we have freewill, if He is, then we don't. Pretty cut and dry.

Anyway, other points:

What the heck does the Hebrew of 6:45 have to do with anything? It basically says that those of God will be taught by God and be drawn by God. More evidence for election.

Also, I'm not defending Calvin and Augustine... I'm defending their position on the subject matter.

Maybe I'm just getting old and awry, but it's aggravating when someone tries to start a strawman debate.

I don't understand your distinction that God can't be omnipotent and Grant free will.

Because one can, doesn't mean they must. God doesn't have to exert all the power he has over humanity.

It creates another "rock lifting" paradox type of question. If God is all powerful he must be able to give man freewill.

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15-02-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(15-02-2013 02:26 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 11:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now I ask you to refine your understanding with the OT quotation from John 6:45, since you gave me 6:44. I know 45 also looks like election. But quote says in Isaiah:

All your sons will be taught of the Lord;
And the well-being of your sons will be great.
“In righteousness you will be established;
You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear;

Check your Hebrew.

It honestly seems like you're just pulling stuff out of nowhere to make it say what you want it to say.

v13
Says that the following generations will be taught about God. It doesn't say anything else. They will simply be taught. Hebrew here.

v14
Says that they are going to be established in the Law... this is what the Hebrew says in regards to "righteousness". It is referring to the law.

Hebrew here. Look at the first definition. It references that Isaiah 54:14 is talking about "righteousness" in government.

Quote:This is the Messianic expectation of all Israel being saved as in Romans 11:26.

How can they all the sons be taught by God if they cannot hear God in their total depravity, without their total election of 100% of some, without prevenient grace. How can GOD, not man, teach them ALL if they all cannot hear...? It just seems like bad exegesis to say this John firms Calvinist election when the quotation embedded speaks of a time when all, not some, will be saved. But it's not the only example... not by far. (Almost) every time I read a predestination verse I look for context and I see free will and non-election verses.

Everything you said is irrelevant and unfounded. Again, it's talking about the governmental law of the land. This has nothing to do with them being of God or not being of God. It has nothing to do with them being able to hear God's will or not. The language plainly states that this is about government law, so your conjectures are without merit.

The people that aren't of God still cannot hear God, but this doesn't mean that they can't be taught and reared in the ways of Jewish law.

Quote:For example, are you a five-point Calvinist?

Yes.

Quote:We can say:

Israel was totally depraved, unconditionally elected, received limited atonement, was irresistibly drawn to God--but then Calvinists say Israel was cast off so Israel was not able to Persevere.

Either Israel is elect permanently and not temporarily and five-point Calvinism is a consistent doctrine or...

But if I knew how many points you held to I'd understand better. Thanks!

Israel =/= an individual

I can't believe you're even combining the two.

Israel was the chosen nation of God that He would protect and uplift. Not every single Jew was, is, or will be "saved". Salvation is based on the individual.

Not to sound crass, but you don't really have a solid grasp of election and predestination do you? I mean, have you actually studied it?
It says "they will all be taught of God." Guess I misunderstand that predestinarian doctrine says that can't hear God. Please explain.
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15-02-2013, 05:18 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:Not to sound crass, but you don't really have a solid grasp of election and predestination do you? I mean, have you actually studied it?
Good question. How much more studying do you recommend I do until I completely understand the damned have no hope of redemption and instead of 100% assurance of salvation (I'm not an Arminian) you want me to be unsure of my own election? If I'm going to be unsure I'm saved, can I least be something fun like a Mormon or a JW?
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