Why did God make so many idiots?
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11-02-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote: A person presents themselves to me as an amorous (in the agape sense) stranger. They then step in front of a bus, pushing me out of the way,
proclaiming their love for me, and saying as final words, "Now make your life count, bro!"

I like this. Where that bus come from? Who's driving it? How come it's barreling down the sidewalk? How come the enamoured stranger can't just grab your coat and pull you out of the way, and then you could get married and live happily...? But, No, it's all weeping and wailing and begging and pleading and gnashing of teeth. Your free choice.

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11-02-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:Well, the bus is, in fact, in your imagination. No one died to save my life.
Okay, then, a bus a mile away killed my brother whom you are yet to meet. Now tell me why my brother is MORALLY REPUGNANT TO YOU, please.
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11-02-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Well, the bus is, in fact, in your imagination. No one died to save my life.
Okay, then, a bus a mile away killed my brother whom you are yet to meet. Now tell me why my brother is MORALLY REPUGNANT TO YOU, please.
What? Now your brother and the bus have nothing to do with me. What is your point?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:It is not a straw-man. It is a simplification of the argument that if the bible is true, then god did not give anyone free will. You were either made capable of believing, or made incapable of believing. If you are created by an omnipotent and omniscient god, then you have no free will.
Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?
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11-02-2013, 03:24 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:It's only the apologists who will tell you that God "allows" babies to be born with brain damage, or be so malnourished and neglected that they never develop properly. It's only the apologists who tell you that everything good comes from God and everything bad is your own fault. They relieve God of responsibility for the brief brutishness of life in this vale of tears, because they want Him to be all sweet & cuddly. God Himself isn't a bit abashed to throw undeserved thunderbolts around... because, like He said to Job: "Iyam What Iyam - suck it up!".
Okay, there's no God, or there is. You choose for this question, "Why is the vale of tears bad? Because you said it's bad?"
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11-02-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:I like this. Where that bus come from? Who's driving it? How come it's barreling down the sidewalk? How come the enamoured stranger can't just grab your coat and pull you out of the way, and then you could get married and live happily...? But, No, it's all weeping and wailing and begging and pleading and gnashing of teeth. Your free choice.
And THERE's the Atheist's summa. Question: Who's driving the bus? How come it's out of control? Why couldn't your brother pull my coat from a mile distant?
How about GEE, THANKS TO YOUR BROTHER FOR SAVING MY LIFE? Not weeping, not wailing, not Hell, not even "free choice," just a little gratitude from Mr. or Mrs. Prideful Atheist.
What questions would you ask Jesus if you saw Him in Heaven? Who killed JFK? Why is there bad in the world? Why did Obama win re-election?
I ask no questions and say, "THANKS FOR SAVING ME."
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11-02-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 02:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:How nice of him to give me the "free will" to love him or roast in hell...
Straw man. THAT is not the "choice". You make it sound like a lack of feeling drives one to be lost.

Try:

A person presents themselves to me as an amorous (in the agape sense) stranger. They then step in front of a bus, pushing me out of the way, proclaiming their love for me, and saying as final words, "Now make your life count, bro!"

Then I spend the next 20 years on forums decrying their love for me, saying I'm better than them, smarter than them, don't need them, and they never even existed. The bus coming to kill me was all in someone's imagination, etc.

Then the stranger's brothers come to me, begging, pleading, praying, helping, serving. I tell them all to go jump in a lake. I say the brothers have no right to grieve for the lost brother or to celebrate his life. I assault their senses with vicious attacks. I call them every name under the sun. The brothers than try to continue to win me over with their (admittedly finite) logic, with love, with prayer, with gifts.

I'm not suprised when a Christian says, "What else could Jesus do?"
No, try this:

Two thousand years ago someone wrote a book. The book tells you that a bus is coming for you one day, and that way back then, two thousand years ago, some dude stepped in front of that bus because he loves you. There is no evidence for this bus or for this dude. You have to take the book's word for it.

So you don't. You wait for something just a little more believable than an ancient book full of fairy tales and mythology, poorly copied and poorly translated for so many centuries that even the experts can't tell you what the original book actually said. You never find anything else. Just the book.

Then you spend 20 years telling people that the book has failed to convince you and that you're looking for some other reason to believe in the (apparently nonexistent) bus and the (apparently nonexistent) dude who stepped in front of it. You're aware that other people believe in the book but it doesn't mean you think you're better than them. You wonder why they believe in something so childish, but since most of them seem to be rational and likable people, you don't hold it against them.

Some of them come to you from time to time to try to get you to believe in the stories in that ancient book, begging, pleading, praying, helping, serving. You try to tell them that their faith might be misplaced and that the bus and the dude might never have existed at all but they won't listen. You agree to disagree, continuing to wait for better proof. You don't tell them to jump in a lake, not unless they get ridiculously pushy and won't take "no" for an answer. You don't attack them or assault their senses; you're more than willing to walk away and let them believe whatever they want without doing or saying anything about it at all, but some of them insist, ask questions, debate, argue, and sometimes you rise to the challenge and engage in those discussions, debates, and arguments (like this one).

And when a Christian says "What else could Jesus do?", you answer him with:

He could do lots of things. For one, since he's omnipotent and timeless, he could appear in more places than on dusty corner of the ancient world. He could appear here, today, if he wanted to. He could have spread a better message than the mixed signals he allegedly gave those dusty people in that dusty corner of the ancient world. He could make sure his religion is world-wide, with no competition, so that we wouldn't have to choose the right faith from amongst thousands of equally illogical choices. He could have ensured that the bible would be error-free, inspired perfect copying and perfect translating and prevented selfish religious leaders from changing the bible's content to suit their selfish whims. He could have been part of a religion that makes sense, that doesn't have tons of doctrinal internal contradictions and misinformation, and that doesn't guarantee that most of mankind will end up tortured for eternity based on a few life decisions that are nearly impossible to make correctly. He could have actually existed, incontrovertibly, with reputable secular historical records to prove it rather than just a few myths in that ancient book. He could prove his existence to anyone and everyone rather than just limiting his alleged proof only to those people who choose to love him without proof.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of what Jesus could do.

And since he's omniscient, he knows this. He knows that most of us are going to burn for all of eternity and he's perfectly OK with all of us sharing that fate. And somehow we're all supposed to believe that he loves us? How can he love us and let us burn in hell for eternity?

He's omniscient enough to know better and omnipotent enough to do better and yet he does not.

I'm not surprised when a non-Christian says, "What else do you need to convince you that Christianity is all bullshit?"

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11-02-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years!
Let's see if our resident Calvinist (kingschosen) is able to answer your challenge.

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11-02-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years!
Let's see if our resident Calvinist (kingschosen) is able to answer your challenge.

I thought you were "done" with me, Vosur. See? Atheists lack self-control. Smile
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11-02-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I thought you were "done" with me, Vosur. See? Atheists lack self-control. Smile
I thought you said that people should look at statements within their proper "context". See? Theists are hypocrites. Smile

See how that works out?

I said that I am done talking to you in reference to our discussion about Bible contradictions.

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