Why did God make so many idiots?
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11-02-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I like this. Where that bus come from? Who's driving it? How come it's barreling down the sidewalk? How come the enamoured stranger can't just grab your coat and pull you out of the way, and then you could get married and live happily...? But, No, it's all weeping and wailing and begging and pleading and gnashing of teeth. Your free choice.
And THERE's the Atheist's summa. Question: Who's driving the bus? How come it's out of control? Why couldn't your brother pull my coat from a mile distant?
How about GEE, THANKS TO YOUR BROTHER FOR SAVING MY LIFE? Not weeping, not wailing, not Hell, not even "free choice," just a little gratitude from Mr. or Mrs. Prideful Atheist.
What questions would you ask Jesus if you saw Him in Heaven? Who killed JFK? Why is there bad in the world? Why did Obama win re-election?
I ask no questions and say, "THANKS FOR SAVING ME."


Who saved you from what?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Two thousand years ago someone wrote a book.
**No, 40 people wrote 66 books and epistles.
The book tells you that a bus is coming for you one day, and
that way back then, two thousand years ago, some dude stepped in front of that
bus because he loves you.

**No, the book tells you what is happening on the world
scene, and gives astonishing insight into human nature, and reminds us we all
lack self-control.

There is no evidence for this bus or for this dude. You have
to take the book's word for it.

**No, the book says to “ask and receive” many things,
ESPECIALLY evidence. But Atheists don’t ask and/or don’t like the answers.

So you don't. You wait for something just a little more
believable than an ancient book full of fairy tales and mythology, poorly
copied and poorly translated for so many centuries that even the experts can't
tell you what the original book actually said. You never find anything else.
Just the book.

**No, I have the
original book and you have ZERO examples you can produce of ANY verses in Greek
or Hebrew that were changed since ancient times.

Then you spend 20 years telling people that the book has
failed to convince you and that you're looking for some other reason to believe
in the (apparently nonexistent) bus and the (apparently nonexistent) dude who
stepped in front of it. You're aware that other people believe in the book but
it doesn't mean you think you're better than them. You wonder why they believe
in something so childish, but since most of them seem to be rational and
likable people, you don't hold it against them.

[/font]
Some of them come to you from time to time to try to get you
to believe in the stories in that ancient book, begging, pleading, praying,
helping, serving. You try to tell them that their faith might be misplaced and
that the bus and the dude might never have existed at all but they won't
listen. You agree to disagree, continuing to wait for better proof. You don't
tell them to jump in a lake, not unless they get ridiculously pushy and won't
take "no" for an answer. You don't attack them or assault their
senses; you're more than willing to walk away and let them believe whatever
they want without doing or saying anything about it at all, but some of them
insist, ask questions, debate, argue, and sometimes you rise to the challenge
and engage in those discussions, debates, and arguments (like this one).

**Right, you just patiently and lovingly say Jesus doesn’t
exist and “witness” destruction to other individuals. You didn’t do anything
wrong and you never sinned apart from your “witness” either. You’re perfect.


And when a Christian says "What else could Jesus
do?", you answer him with:


[font=Calibri]He could do lots of things. For one, since he's omnipotent
and timeless, he could appear in more places than on dusty corner of the
ancient world. He could appear here, today, if he wanted to. He could have
spread a better message than the mixed signals he allegedly gave those dusty
people in that dusty corner of the ancient world. He could make sure his
religion is world-wide, with no competition, so that we wouldn't have to choose
the right faith from amongst thousands of equally illogical choices. He could
have ensured that the bible would be error-free, inspired perfect copying and
perfect translating and prevented selfish religious leaders from changing the
bible's content to suit their selfish whims. He could have been part of a
religion that makes sense, that doesn't have tons of doctrinal internal contradictions
and misinformation, and that doesn't guarantee that most of mankind will end up
tortured for eternity based on a few life decisions that are nearly impossible
to make correctly. He could have actually existed, incontrovertibly, with
reputable secular historical records to prove it rather than just a few myths
in that ancient book. He could prove his existence to anyone and everyone
rather than just limiting his alleged proof only to those people who choose to
love him without proof.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of what Jesus could do.
And since he's
omniscient, he knows this. He knows that most of us are going to burn for all
of eternity and he's perfectly OK with all of us sharing that fate. And somehow
we're all supposed to believe that he loves us? How can he love us and let us
burn in hell for eternity?

He's omniscient
enough to know better and omnipotent enough to do better and yet he does not.

I'm not surprised
when a non-Christian says, "What else do you need to convince you that
Christianity is all bullshit?"

**And on these last, you’re 1) assuming most people are
lost, not in Heaven. Most Christians I know would disagree. 2) you’re assuming
that an appearance by Jesus would convince you when you could more than easily
explain it away as an hallucination, right?
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11-02-2013, 03:37 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:35 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Two thousand years ago someone wrote a book.
**No, 40 people wrote 66 books and epistles.
The book tells you that a bus is coming for you one day, and
that way back then, two thousand years ago, some dude stepped in front of that
bus because he loves you.

**No, the book tells you what is happening on the world
scene, and gives astonishing insight into human nature, and reminds us we all
lack self-control.

There is no evidence for this bus or for this dude. You have
to take the book's word for it.

**No, the book says to “ask and receive” many things,
ESPECIALLY evidence. But Atheists don’t ask and/or don’t like the answers.

So you don't. You wait for something just a little more
believable than an ancient book full of fairy tales and mythology, poorly
copied and poorly translated for so many centuries that even the experts can't
tell you what the original book actually said. You never find anything else.
Just the book.

**No, I have the
original book and you have ZERO examples you can produce of ANY verses in Greek
or Hebrew that were changed since ancient times.

Then you spend 20 years telling people that the book has
failed to convince you and that you're looking for some other reason to believe
in the (apparently nonexistent) bus and the (apparently nonexistent) dude who
stepped in front of it. You're aware that other people believe in the book but
it doesn't mean you think you're better than them. You wonder why they believe
in something so childish, but since most of them seem to be rational and
likable people, you don't hold it against them.

[/font]
Some of them come to you from time to time to try to get you
to believe in the stories in that ancient book, begging, pleading, praying,
helping, serving. You try to tell them that their faith might be misplaced and
that the bus and the dude might never have existed at all but they won't
listen. You agree to disagree, continuing to wait for better proof. You don't
tell them to jump in a lake, not unless they get ridiculously pushy and won't
take "no" for an answer. You don't attack them or assault their
senses; you're more than willing to walk away and let them believe whatever
they want without doing or saying anything about it at all, but some of them
insist, ask questions, debate, argue, and sometimes you rise to the challenge
and engage in those discussions, debates, and arguments (like this one).

**Right, you just patiently and lovingly say Jesus doesn’t
exist and “witness” destruction to other individuals. You didn’t do anything
wrong and you never sinned apart from your “witness” either. You’re perfect.


And when a Christian says "What else could Jesus
do?", you answer him with:


[font=Calibri]He could do lots of things. For one, since he's omnipotent
and timeless, he could appear in more places than on dusty corner of the
ancient world. He could appear here, today, if he wanted to. He could have
spread a better message than the mixed signals he allegedly gave those dusty
people in that dusty corner of the ancient world. He could make sure his
religion is world-wide, with no competition, so that we wouldn't have to choose
the right faith from amongst thousands of equally illogical choices. He could
have ensured that the bible would be error-free, inspired perfect copying and
perfect translating and prevented selfish religious leaders from changing the
bible's content to suit their selfish whims. He could have been part of a
religion that makes sense, that doesn't have tons of doctrinal internal contradictions
and misinformation, and that doesn't guarantee that most of mankind will end up
tortured for eternity based on a few life decisions that are nearly impossible
to make correctly. He could have actually existed, incontrovertibly, with
reputable secular historical records to prove it rather than just a few myths
in that ancient book. He could prove his existence to anyone and everyone
rather than just limiting his alleged proof only to those people who choose to
love him without proof.

That's just the tip of the iceberg of what Jesus could do.
And since he's
omniscient, he knows this. He knows that most of us are going to burn for all
of eternity and he's perfectly OK with all of us sharing that fate. And somehow
we're all supposed to believe that he loves us? How can he love us and let us
burn in hell for eternity?

He's omniscient
enough to know better and omnipotent enough to do better and yet he does not.

I'm not surprised
when a non-Christian says, "What else do you need to convince you that
Christianity is all bullshit?"

**And on these last, you’re 1) assuming most people are
lost, not in Heaven. Most Christians I know would disagree. 2) you’re assuming
that an appearance by Jesus would convince you when you could more than easily
explain it away as an hallucination, right?


Would you mind editing that cut-and-paste job so that it is readable?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:He could prove his existence to anyone and everyone rather
than just limiting his alleged proof only to those people who choose to love
him without proof.


I think this is my favorite straw man of all. Say you’re on
a jury for a capital crime and you get tons of evidence, forensic,
eyewitnesses, a confession, etc. proving the guilt of the accused. But you
hesitate to declare guilt because you are reasonable and compassionate and you
harbor a little doubt—perhaps the accused was framed—perhaps the evidence was
manipulated, the confession coerced under duress.


But it is intentioned that jurors NOT be present at the
scene of the crime or have foreknowledge of the case, etc. But a reasonable
person makes a decision, indeed dozens of them over the course of day, without
iron clad proof, just some evidence.


I chose to trust Jesus with a fraction of the evidence I
have now, and a reasonable person may have reasonable doubts, but Atheists use
the P-word like it is some kind of magic bullet. How can you ever love and
trust your spouse? Do you have absolute PROOF she is faithful? How can you ever
believe Evolution? Do you have PROOF it’s real—not evidence that is open to interpretation,
but PROOF!


Oy!
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11-02-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will?

The bible doesn't say any such thing. Of course we all have free will. I can eat this candy bar on my desk. Or I could give it away, or throw it away, or leave it there for all of eternity if I so choose. That's freewill. We all have it.

But when we're in a theological debate talking about freewill, the only thing that matters is whether or not we have the freewill to achieve salvation. Will we be saved and remain in heaven forever or will we fail and be tortured in hell forever - and do we have the freewill to decide.

That question of freewill is a big one, and open to much debate.

(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?

The bible doesn't say that, but "reality" says it loud and clear.

Nobody chooses what they believe or don't believe. As proof of this, I ask you to believe in Santa Claus. Really believe. Don't just tell me you believe when you really don't. Don't just pretend to believe when you really don't. But actually, truly, honestly believe in Santa Claus. Can you do it? Of course you can't. You have knowledge that tells you that Santa Claus is made up, pretend, just a myth.

But could you, if you tried, really believe in Santa Claus?

I'm sure that you cannot.

What if you met someone today, a grown man, who really truly believes in Santa Claus. He tries desperately to convince you. He offers a book that says Santa Claus is real. He tells you testimony of how he knows, in his heart, that Santa Claus is real. Would that convince you?

No, of course not.

You just simply don't believe, and for you to begin believing, you will need much more proof than some old book and someone else's testimony.

Likewise, I cannot make myself believe in Jesus, or God. I just simply don't believe, and for me to begin believing, I will need much more proof than some old book and someone else's testimony.

So, that said, I am incapable of believing in Jesus based on the information available to me. God made me this way. He gave me my brain, he chose my parents, let them bring me into this world and let them raise me without religion. He allowed me to learn to think for myself, become a skeptic. He knew I would be like this before I was born and yet he allowed me to be born and even gave me a soul, knowing full well that when I die this soul he gave me will burn in hell forever.

For some reason, PleaseJesus, you ARE capable of believing and I am NOT capable of believing, and god made each of us this way, knowing in advance exactly how we would live our lives.

The bible doesn't say that, but "reality" proves it.

(actually, the "reality" I use here - and kept it in quotation marks - is the imaginary one in which God is real; actual "reality" proves that there is no evidence to believe that such a god exists at all).

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11-02-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Quote:I said that I am done talking to you in reference to our discussion about Bible contradictions.
1. Lighten up, dude. I was teasing you. That's what friends do, joke around. 2. That wasn't a thread about Bible contradictions!
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11-02-2013, 03:54 PM
AW: RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. Lighten up, dude. I was teasing you. That's what friends do, joke around. 2. That wasn't a thread about Bible contradictions!
I thought you were being serious. In that case, I'm sorry for the knee-jerk reaction.

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11-02-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:46 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  That's what friends do, joke around.
...
And you still did not answer my question.

It seems that you have none -- which is what I suspected.

So, will I ever know why god made so many idiots?
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11-02-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 02:14 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Good question! Aren't you really asking, "Why did God allow so many people the free will to act like idiots?"
I've often thought that when reading Voltaire, Shaw or Darwin. Smile

Time to join the 21st Century. Free will is debunked.






So please tell Jebus to get you an education, ASAP.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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11-02-2013, 04:09 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:He could prove his existence to anyone and everyone rather
than just limiting his alleged proof only to those people who choose to love
him without proof.


I think this is my favorite straw man of all. Say you’re on
a jury for a capital crime and you get tons of evidence, forensic,
eyewitnesses, a confession, etc. proving the guilt of the accused. But you
hesitate to declare guilt because you are reasonable and compassionate and you
harbor a little doubt—perhaps the accused was framed—perhaps the evidence was
manipulated, the confession coerced under duress.


But it is intentioned that jurors NOT be present at the
scene of the crime or have foreknowledge of the case, etc. But a reasonable
person makes a decision, indeed dozens of them over the course of day, without
iron clad proof, just some evidence.


I chose to trust Jesus with a fraction of the evidence I
have now, and a reasonable person may have reasonable doubts, but Atheists use
the P-word like it is some kind of magic bullet. How can you ever love and
trust your spouse? Do you have absolute PROOF she is faithful? How can you ever
believe Evolution? Do you have PROOF it’s real—not evidence that is open to interpretation,
but PROOF!


Oy!
No, we ask for evidence - not proof.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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