Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
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22-11-2016, 09:07 PM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
You forgot that the price for the snake event could be paid for with the bloody slaughter of sheep, as a stopgap measure, until he got around to tortruring himself to death. Tongue

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-11-2016, 09:13 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2016 09:18 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 08:59 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Ok I'm trolling and I shouldn't, Its just... you guys know what this book is about right?

Its all about some guy named Adam who got deceived by a talking snake, and we are being blamed for that; a second guy (the protagonist) really held a grudge over this snake-talking-deceiving event and blames us for it (actually he blames everyone aside from himself conveniently)... then the story tells that this protagonist, offered (before we are born) to forgive us from what the first guy did (that guy Adam, before we were all born too)

But for that guy to forgive us and get the over that snake-deceiving event, he needs (apparently) to pay in our place some sort of moral debt (to himself).

Then, without our consent or we asking for that, he pays this cost (to himself, in a way that I rather not even get into the details, you guys would never believe it) and thus allowing himself to forgive us, but wait, there's more... he still thinks that, even if he finaly managed to get over the snake-fruit-eating stuff, that shit was so serious that we need to be really really grateful to him, for him paying (to himself), in our place...

And if we dare not be grateful, then we must be punished (which kind of defeats the whole point of forgiveness, so this part doesn't really makes sense, but well, writers sometimes fuck up too, I won't judge, its a huge story to made up all at once).

And happens that the punishment, for not being grateful, for he paying to himself in our place so he could allow himself get fucking over the snake-eating-deceiving event is nothing less than eternal suffering in a lake of fire.

You guys know that right?

(22-11-2016 09:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You forgot that the price for the snake event could be paid for with the bloody slaughter of sheep, as a stopgap measure, until he got around to tortruring himself to death. Tongue

Damn rocket, I told we would be better not getting into details of the methods of (self)payment... now you fucked up and spelled out, no one will believe the damn thing! (Couldn't you at least put a Spoiler Alert?!)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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22-11-2016, 09:18 PM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
What can I say? I'm a damned heathen. Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-11-2016, 09:41 PM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 09:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You could read ONE of them, and have 100% MORE knowledge of the subject than you do now. Clearly this was a big surprise to you, just as the previous subject you claimed knowledge of, and were proven WRONG about, and now, just as then, instead of admitting you were DEAD WRONG, you do your weasel act.

What are you, 12? Why is it that you keep putting in capitals everywhere because you think it somehow enhances your argument? And what exactly makes you an expert in all of this?

All you do is evade every question I pose to you and claim that I'm a serial liar.

Now onto this point - I think you missed my point. If we were talking about the topic of mythicism I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of "articles" about it as well on the internet. It doesn't mean anything. I'm not that interested in Gnosticism - you obviously are - but you haven't demonstrated to me, at all, that there are scholars that actually think John is a Gnostic text rather than a Christian one.

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23-11-2016, 02:57 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 03:24 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 09:41 PM)Aractus Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 09:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You could read ONE of them, and have 100% MORE knowledge of the subject than you do now. Clearly this was a big surprise to you, just as the previous subject you claimed knowledge of, and were proven WRONG about, and now, just as then, instead of admitting you were DEAD WRONG, you do your weasel act.

What are you, 12? Why is it that you keep putting in capitals everywhere because you think it somehow enhances your argument? And what exactly makes you an expert in all of this?

All you do is evade every question I pose to you and claim that I'm a serial liar.

Now onto this point - I think you missed my point. If we were talking about the topic of mythicism I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of "articles" about it as well on the internet. It doesn't mean anything. I'm not that interested in Gnosticism - you obviously are - but you haven't demonstrated to me, at all, that there are scholars that actually think John is a Gnostic text rather than a Christian one.

Nice try, liar.
As per your usual, your reading comprehension is zilch. Zippo. Nada.
I never said John was a "Gnostic text, rather than a Christian one". Thanks for yet again demonstrating your complete ignorance of the subject.
Since I took Bible 101, and actually read the text in question, I am well aware that Greek Gnosticism had a profound influence on John. Unlike you, I recognize Gnostic concepts when I read them.

The hundreds (actually thousands) of scholarly references available on the subject are available to anyone who takes even 5 seconds to look for even one of them. Wallow away in your frightful ignorance, old fella.

Quote:And what exactly makes you an expert in all of this?

Laugh out load
Facepalm


http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-El...RPE6KA6FX4
http://www.amazon.com/Johannine-Exegesis...el+of+john
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Book-John-G...el+of+john
http://www.amazon.com/Gnosticism-Early-C...ristianity
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-Heaven-...ristianity
http://www.amazon.com/Gnosticism-Early-C...ristianity
http://zeltmacher.eu/wp-content/uploads/...ticism.pdf
http://ogdoas.wordpress.com/category/gno...l-of-john/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Gnosticism
http://callingchristians.com/2015/01/05/...l-of-john/

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23-11-2016, 05:41 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 05:47 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
[Image: giphy.gif]

Okay, sorry to interrupt. Please, you two... go on.

[Image: UnripeSomeHorseshoecrab.gif]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-11-2016, 06:02 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(23-11-2016 02:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Since I took Bible 101, and actually read the text in question, I am well aware that Greek Gnosticism had a profound influence on John.

Laugh out load Well it obviously didn't because it didn't exist yet.

Do you not understand what I'm telling you? NT Scholars are confident that John was written before 110 AD. Gnosticism didn't exist in 110 AD.

Plus you have repeatedly ignored the fact that demonstrably non-Gnostic themes also appear in John.

If only Jesus were here to set you straight, he'd make a wonderful atheist! Big Grin

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23-11-2016, 07:39 AM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2016 01:15 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(23-11-2016 06:02 AM)Aractus Wrote:  Do you not understand what I'm telling you? NT Scholars are confident that John was written before 110 AD. Gnosticism didn't exist in 110 AD.

FacepalmLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load
I understand well that again you've made a TOTALLY ignorant and false statement. I provided you with MULTIPLE references. (You provided NONE).

Please *do* continue to make a complete fool of yourself.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/gnostic/#SH2b
"Gnosticism (after gnôsis, the Greek word for "knowledge" or "insight") is the name given to a loosely organized religious and philosophical movement that flourished in the first and second centuries CE. The exact origin(s) of this school of thought cannot be traced, although it is possible to locate influences or sources as far back as the second and first centuries BCE, such as the early treatises of the Corpus Hermeticum, the Jewish Apocalyptic writings, and especially Platonic philosophy and the Hebrew Scriptures themselves.

In spite of the diverse nature of the various Gnostic sects and teachers, certain fundamental elements serve to bind these groups together under the loose heading of "Gnosticism" or "Gnosis." Chief among these elements is a certain manner of "anti-cosmic world rejection" that has often been mistaken for mere dualism. According to the Gnostics, this world, the material cosmos, is the result of a primordial error on the part of a supra-cosmic, supremely divine being, usually called Sophia (Wisdom) or simply the Logos."

"Logos" .... The Word.
I get you never read the gospel of John, (or ANYTHING for that matter), "In the beginning was THE WORD" ... but to EVERYONE else, it sounds *just a little* familiar.

YOU claimed "concensus" repeatedly in your idiotic attempts to weasel out of the fact I disproved your lies about Acts and Paul. I presented you with multiple sources that PROVE that scholars agree that John is replete with Gnostic influence.

Guess what logical fallacy you repeatedly employ with your dating fallacy concerning "John". Facepalm

'‘The History of the Term Gnostikos’ in The Rediscovery of Gnosticism (E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1981, 798–800) Morton Smith lists users of ‘gnostikos’ in this manner as being Aristotle, Strato of Lampsacus, ‘a series of Pythagoreans’, Philo Judaeus and Plutarch, amongst others. Christoph Markschies notes in Gnosis: An Introduction (trans. John Bowden, T & T Clark, London, 2001) that the term was used extensively only within the Platonist tradition, and would not have had much relevance outside it."


Filoramo, Giovanni. A History of Gnosticism, tr. Anthony Alcock (Oxford: Blackwell Publishers 1990, 1992).
Hegel, G.W.F. "The Gnostics" in Lectures on the History of Philosophy, vol 2. "Plato and the Platonists," tr. E.S. Haldane and Frances H. Simson (University of Nebraska Press; Bison Books Edition 1995).
Jonas, Hans (1958, 2001). The Gnostic Religion: The Message of the Alien God and the Beginnings of Christianity (Boston: Beacon Press).
Layton, Bentley (1987). The Gnostic Scriptures (Doubleday: The Anchor Bible Reference Library).
Plato. Laws, tr. Trevor J. Saunders, in Plato: Complete Works, ed. John M. Cooper (Indianapolis: Hackett Publishing 1997).
Plato. Timaeus, tr. Donald J. Zeyl, in Plato: Complete Works.
Plotinus. The Enneads, tr. A.H. Armstrong, in 7 volumes (Harvard: Loeb Classical Library 1966).
Ricoeur, Paul. The Conflict of Interpretations (Northwestern University Press 1974).
Rudolph, Kurt. Gnosis: The Nature and History of Gnosticism, tr. Robert McLachlan Wilson (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark Ltd. 1984).
Segal, Robert A. (ed.) The Gnostic Jung (Princeton University Press 1992).
Barnstone, Willis (1984 ed.) The Other Bible (Harper San Francisco).
Bultmann, Rudolph (1956). Primitive Christianity in its Contemporary Setting (New York: Meridian Books).
Fideler, David (1993). Jesus Christ, Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism (Wheaton, Illinois: Quest Books).
Pagels, Elaine (1975). The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters (Philadelphia: Trinity Press).

Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load .. Laugh out load

You get an "F" Arcky Barky.
So now I see, you ADMIT there are (also) "Gnostic" themes in John, as well as their having "non-Gnostic" themes.
Well *duh*, idiot. I never said there weren't. What I DID say is that there were extensive Gnostic influences which YOU repeatedly DENIED.
Now, as usual, you try to move your stupid ignorant goal posts, and CHANGE what you made your dogmatic assertions about.
"I tire of your dogmatic assertions".
We all know the rise of ideas is a long and complex process. Your foolish business about "Gnosticism didn't exist before ... bla bla bla" belies a very childish and simplistic concept of History and intellectual development. You can't be THAT stupid.

"perverse (pəˈvɜːs)
adj
1. deliberately deviating from what is regarded as normal, good, or proper
2. persistently holding to what is wrong
3. wayward or contrary; obstinate; cantankerous

4. archaic perverted"

Tongue

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