Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
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22-11-2016, 04:55 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2016 05:13 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 04:48 AM)Aractus Wrote:  It sounds to me like you're pushing an opinion. Here let me offer you an explanation - the "Gnostic concepts" in John provided the theological framework for Gnosticism which sprouted during the second century.

John isn't a Gnostic work though, because Gnosticism did not exist until the mid second century, which is well after the latest possible dating of the authorship of John.

John 3:16 is not at all a "Gnostic concept" - in fact it is the direct opposite. So much for John being a Gnostic text.

Thanks for proving you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about ANYTHING here. Anyone here can "google" *Gnosticism and John* and come up with HUNDREDS of scholarly articles.
http://zeltmacher.eu/wp-content/uploads/...ticism.pdf

Whatever you are, you've just demonstrated you're NOT a scholar of anything with respect to the NT.
(And BTW ... more evasion and straw-man creation. I didn't say John was a "Gnostic text", I said it was informed to a very large extent by Gnostic ideas .... and guess what ? If Gnostic ideas were not in circulation until later, then the fucking conclusion is that John's dating would HAVE to be much later than you claim.)

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22-11-2016, 05:14 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
I don't have to google anything, thank you. Gnosticism did not exist until several decades after the latest date that NT scholars believe that John could have been written. Do you dispute this?

Where's your evidence?

The whole thing is laughable. So you want to conclude that John was not written until at least AD 150, by Gnostics no less (even though it's bound within just a few decades of that with Luke); but yet it has themes in it like John 3:16 which are completely anti-Gnosticism! Are you disagreeing with that? John 3:16 is perhaps the strongest statement in the whole of the New Testament of Jesus as a personal saviour for believers - something that's very important to modern Christianity, and something very important in the early church where Paul viewed Jesus as his saviour, and we see this later in the Nicene Creed as well.

And who's the one making straw man arguments - when did I claim to be a New Testament Scholar? Virtually no one, and I mean no one - including scholars - is a true expert on early Christology. And those that are viewed as experts - like Hurtado - admit in their own writings that much of their reconstructions of early Christianity is best-guess and assumptions due to a lack of a narrative and insufficient evidence. Even with that gap though, what you're saying about the gospel of John is bullshit. If you want to believe that it was written in 150AD as a Gnostic text then you have to explain how it came to be bound together with Luke within 50 years. And what are you going to say when the mummy manuscripts get published and completely disprove your stupid hypothesis?

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22-11-2016, 05:30 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
Why didn't Jesus write the NT? Maybe his standards were too high?
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22-11-2016, 05:33 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 05:14 AM)Aractus Wrote:  I don't have to google anything, thank you. Gnosticism did not exist until several decades after the latest date that NT scholars believe that John could have been written. Do you dispute this?

Yes I do. Completely and entirely. Gnosticism existed FAR FAR earlier than you say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gnosticism
I know that there is not the slightest doubt among scholars that Gnostic ideas permeate John, and just like your ignorant refusal to look at the evidence I presented for you lies about Paul, you are again making a fool of yourself.
You may not look, (as you will find yourself WRONG AGAIN, but ANYONE here who does do the search will find I am right. There are HUNDREDS if not thousands of article about John and Gnosticism.

(Someone tell this fool to do a simple search). Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

I knew you would not Google anything. Readers here WILL, and find the hundreds, if not thousands of articles about John and Gnosticism. You will, no doubt wallow in your ignorance, and when proven wrong, again attempt to weasel out away by deflection and straw-man creation.

Quote:Where's your evidence?

Says the fool that never presents any. Laugh out load

Quote:And who's the one making straw man arguments - when did I claim to be a New Testament Scholar? Virtually no one, and I mean no one - including scholars - is a true expert on early Christology. And those that are viewed as experts - like Hurtado - admit in their own writings that much of their reconstructions of early Christianity is best-guess and assumptions due to a lack of a narrative and insufficient evidence. Even with that gap though, what you're saying about the gospel of John is bullshit. If you want to believe that it was written in 150AD as a Gnostic text then you have to explain how it came to be bound together with Luke within 50 years. And what are you going to say when the mummy manuscripts get published and completely disprove your stupid hypothesis?

Dear, "Christology" and "NT scholarship" are not the same thing.
When they were "bound together" proves nothing.

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22-11-2016, 05:45 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 05:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes I do. Completely and entirely. Gnosticism existed FAR FAR earlier than you say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gnosticism

So. After all this time for asking you for evidence - your source is Wikipedia?

I have better things to do with my time.

Quote:I know that there is not the slightest doubt among scholars that Gnostic ideas permeate John, and just like your ignorant refusal to look at the evidence I presented for you lies about Paul, you are again making a fool of yourself.

Now who's making the straw man. I didn't say that there aren't "Gnostic ideas" in John. I just said there wasn't Gnosticism yet and that John may have helped form the basis for Gnostic ideas, rather than being (as you claim) a result of them.

Quote:You may not look, (as you will find yourself WRONG AGAIN, but ANYONE here who does do the search will find I am right. There are HUNDREDS if not thousands of article about John and Gnosticism.

Thousands you say? Gosh where will I find the time to read them all? Rolleyes

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22-11-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
Both of those guys seem to be biblical experts (comparing to me at least, and I already know a lot more than most Christians) and they speak so seriously about the details on the book and still can't agree on most things.

It almost seems like the whole book doesn't make sense... err... wait.

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22-11-2016, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2016 08:28 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 05:45 AM)Aractus Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 05:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes I do. Completely and entirely. Gnosticism existed FAR FAR earlier than you say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gnosticism

So. After all this time for asking you for evidence - your source is Wikipedia?

You were given a source previously, which per your usual practice, pretended wasn't there.

Quote:I have better things to do with my time.

Like what ? Make up lies about Paul and Acts ?

Quote:I didn't say that there aren't "Gnostic ideas" in John. I just said there wasn't Gnosticism yet and that John may have helped form the basis for Gnostic ideas, rather than being (as you claim) a result of them.

Liar. I never said it was the "result" of anything.
Caught in your ignorance again, and you make up shit and try to weasel out of your position. We all saw what you did and said here.

Quote:Thousands you say? Gosh where will I find the time to read them all? Rolleyes

You could read ONE of them, and have 100% MORE knowledge of the subject than you do now. Clearly this was a big surprise to you, just as the previous subject you claimed knowledge of, and were proven WRONG about, and now, just as then, instead of admitting you were DEAD WRONG, you do your weasel act.

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22-11-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
(22-11-2016 06:13 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Both of those guys seem to be biblical experts (comparing to me at least, and I already know a lot more than most Christians) and they speak so seriously about the details on the book and still can't agree on most things.

It almost seems like the whole book doesn't make sense... err... wait.

Yeah, Bucky vs. Aractus is quality cage fight. Big Grin

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22-11-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
Yes, they're kinda down to the minute details of things here.

They're sort of ..........................

[Image: splittinghairs_214x317.jpg]


Ok, carry on.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-11-2016, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2016 09:07 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament?
Well... since we are already speaking so seriously about very sensitive subjects that directly impact our theological view, do you guys think Vegeta finally surpassed Goku?

Ok I'm trolling and I shouldn't, Its just... you guys know what this book is about right?

Its all about some guy named Adam who got deceived by a talking snake, and we are being blamed for that; a second guy (the protagonist) really held a grudge over this snake-talking-deceiving event and blames us for it (actually he blames everyone aside from himself conveniently)... then the story tells that this protagonist, offered (before we are born) to forgive us from what the first guy did (that guy Adam, before we were all born too)

But for that guy to forgive us and get the over that snake-deceiving event, he needs (apparently) to pay in our place some sort of moral debt (to himself).

Then, without our consent or we asking for that, he pays this cost (to himself, in a way that I rather not even get into the details, you guys would never believe it) and thus allowing himself to forgive us, but wait, there's more... he still thinks that, even if he finaly managed to get over the snake-fruit-eating stuff, that shit was so serious that we need to be really really grateful to him, for him paying (to himself), in our place...

And if we dare not be grateful, then we must be punished (which kind of defeats the whole point of forgiveness, so this part doesn't really makes sense, but well, writers sometimes fuck up too, I won't judge, its a huge story to made up all at once).

And happens that the punishment, for not being grateful, for he paying to himself in our place so he could allow himself get fucking over the snake-eating-deceiving event is nothing less than eternal suffering in a lake of fire.

You guys know that right?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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