Why do Christians trust YHWH?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-02-2014, 07:11 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 06:45 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
Please quote chapter and verse showing where Eleazar gave these young girls to anybody. This is your conjecture of what happened. My conjecture is that he used them as sex slaves or sold them as slaves to "other people" or sacrificed them to YHWH who was not averse to a human offering here and there.
Doc
The numbers passage says that they were to keep the girls for themselves, so that rules out selling them into slavery. The treatment of captured girls is given in Deut 21:
10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. 13 She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.

So, while I can't be sure the women became wives of Israelites as the passage doesn't explicitly tell us that, it's more likely than the scenarios you propose. Also note that Israel was a polygamous society which placed great importance on legitimate offspring, which also indicates that captured women would be made wives. If some men have more than one wife, that means others have none, unless they're brought in from outside.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 07:24 AM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 07:36 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
Alpha,
In case you're not aware, Deutoronomy comes after Numbers. The law in Deut. was not in place during the Midianite campaign, so Eleazar could do anything he liked with his women. Considering that the Israelites were willing to slaughter 32,000 women and enslave another 32,000, what's the rape, slavery or sacrifice of a few? My scenario is far more likely. Remember, the 32 virigns were "for the Lord" and could not be given willy-nilly to anyone, so maybe sacrifice was the most likely outcome.

I'm not going to touch the passage you quoted now, though it's just as barbaric and proves the misogynistic cruelty of your "God".

Doc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 07:24 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
In case you're not aware, Deutoronomy comes after Numbers. The law in Deut. was not in place during the Midianite campaign, so Eleazar could do anything he liked with his women. Considering that the Israelites were willing to slaughter 32,000 women and enslave another 32,000, what's the rape, slavery or sacrifice of a few?
You're not thinking this through. The fact that they did slaughter 32,000 women and an unspecified number of boys shows that they weren't interested in keeping the captives as slaves or selling captives as slaves, and indicates that those not killed were to become wives. Slavers don't go to the bother of capturing people just to kill them off - no profit in that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:10 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 06:09 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(20-02-2014 11:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So the billion Catholics have this wrong? Excellent. Try telling them that for me, will ya?
Catholics do differentiate between murder, suicide, capital punishment, and self defense.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07441a.htm

I'm not a link guy, and I doubt that's a peer-reviewed link. If you're too lazy to get the pope on the phone for me then I don't have time for you.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:21 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
[/i]
(21-02-2014 07:50 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 07:24 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
In case you're not aware, Deutoronomy comes after Numbers. The law in Deut. was not in place during the Midianite campaign, so Eleazar could do anything he liked with his women. Considering that the Israelites were willing to slaughter 32,000 women and enslave another 32,000, what's the rape, slavery or sacrifice of a few?
You're not thinking this through. The fact that they did slaughter 32,000 women and an unspecified number of boys shows that they weren't interested in keeping the captives as slaves or selling captives as slaves, and indicates that those not killed were to become wives. Slavers don't go to the bother of capturing people just to kill them off - no profit in that.

Alpha,
You are right. The original intention of God was to wipe out the entire nation of Midian for leading Israel astray. The virgins were saved as an afterthought. Moses was actually angry with the Israelites for saving the boys and the women (they, at least, felt that these would make good slaves). It was Moses who ordered the slaughter of the non-virigins and boys.

If there was no thought of taking any prisoners before the slaughter, what makes you think that the Isarelites were suddenly in need of 32,000 wives who were young girls, to boot?

Doc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:10 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'm not a link guy, and I doubt that's a peer-reviewed link. If you're too lazy to get the pope on the phone for me then I don't have time for you.
LOL - Doc was smart enough to heed my warning. If you want to expand the peer-review bit outside science issues, then your own charge is not supported and I don't need to respond. Drinking Beverage
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(20-02-2014 09:49 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(20-02-2014 09:41 PM)Drich Wrote:  Now finish the story, or is it your hope that you half truth will not be noticed by any of your peers?

I know Jesus gives in after his peeps egged him on, and the woman begged even more. My point is the perfect and compassionate Jesus said this to a woman who just simply asked for help. Some ego he had.
Maybe your think about the jesus that cuts your grass or someone else..

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Drich's post
21-02-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:21 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
You are right. The original intention of God was to wipe out the entire nation of Midian for leading Israel astray.
Yes, and this lends further support to the position that the differentiator between those saved and killed was age rather than physical inspection. Older women, even if still virgins, would be more indoctrinated in their religion and more likely to lead Israel astray if kept.
Quote:The virgins were saved as an afterthought. Moses was actually angry with the Israelites for saving the boys and the women (they, at least, felt that these would make good slaves). It was Moses who ordered the slaughter of the non-virigins and boys.

If there was no thought of taking any prisoners before the slaughter, what makes you think that the Isarelites were suddenly in need of 32,000 wives who were young girls, to boot?

Doc
As I've already explained, the Israelite culture placed great importance on legitimate offspring and allowed polygamy, necessitating brides from outside their own people.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:32 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 08:10 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  I'm not a link guy, and I doubt that's a peer-reviewed link. If you're too lazy to get the pope on the phone for me then I don't have time for you.
LOL - Doc was smart enough to heed my warning. If you want to expand the peer-review bit outside science issues, then your own charge is not supported and I don't need to respond. Drinking Beverage

Of course I was just parodying you. I was a Catholic so I know what the CCC says, I was just being facetious with Drich. If I were still religious I would prefer the commandment to mean "murder" as well.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-02-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:38 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 08:21 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
You are right. The original intention of God was to wipe out the entire nation of Midian for leading Israel astray.
Yes, and this lends further support to the position that the differentiator between those saved and killed was age rather than physical inspection. Older women, even if still virgins, would be more indoctrinated in their religion and more likely to lead Israel astray if kept.

Why, then did God not tell the Israelites to save just the virgins in the first place? His original order was to slaughter everybody. It was the mercy of the people rather than their God that saved the 32,000.

If age was a factor, why were the young boys slaughtered?

Also, please tell me how the unlucky ones were killed. Stoned? Heads chopped off? Eviscerated? What is the quickest way to kill 40,000 or more people (non-virigns and young boys) in a non-mechanized age? How long did it take to kill them all?
Doc
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: