Why do Christians trust YHWH?
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21-02-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:45 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Why, then did God not tell the Israelites to save just the virgins in the first place? His original order was to slaughter everybody. It was the mercy of the people rather than their God that saved the 32,000.
No, the original order was simply "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel." The issue of the captives came up later, and was decided either by Moses himself or additional orders from God to Moses. We're not told which.
Quote:If age was a factor, why were the young boys slaughtered?
Age is a factor, but not the only factor. As noted a couple times now, the nature of Israel's culture required outside brides. Boys aren't brides.
Quote:Also, please tell me how the unlucky ones were killed. Stoned? Heads chopped off? Eviscerated? What is the quickest way to kill 40,000 or more people (non-virigns and young boys) in a non-mechanized age? How long did it take to kill them all?
Doc
I don't know, as the passage doesn't say.
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21-02-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 08:56 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Age is a factor, but not the only factor. As noted a couple times now, the nature of Israel's culture required outside brides. Boys aren't brides.

I don't know, as the passage doesn't say.

OK. Please explain Deut. 7:3: "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons."

Your second answer above is the truest thing you've said so far. Keep it up. We may convert you yet!

Doc
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21-02-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 09:23 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. Please explain Deut. 7:3: "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons."
What would you like explained?
Quote:Your second answer above is the truest thing you've said so far. Keep it up. We may convert you yet!

Doc
Doubtful. Appeals to emotion play well with the home crowd, but they don't impress me, and that's about 3/4 of your schtick.
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21-02-2014, 09:37 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 09:27 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:23 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. Please explain Deut. 7:3: "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons."
What would you like explained?
Quote:Your second answer above is the truest thing you've said so far. Keep it up. We may convert you yet!

Doc
Doubtful. Appeals to emotion play well with the home crowd, but they don't impress me, and that's about 3/4 of your schtick.

Alpha,
This is your statment:
As noted a couple times now, the nature of Israel's culture required outside brides.

This is the Bible's statement:
Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons.

Now, explain.

Doc
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21-02-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 09:37 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
This is your statment:
As noted a couple times now, the nature of Israel's culture required outside brides.

This is the Bible's statement:
Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons.

Now, explain.
You previously noted yourself that Numbers comes before Deuteronomy. Angel
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21-02-2014, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 11:28 AM by docskeptic.)
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 10:52 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:37 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alpha,
This is your statment:
As noted a couple times now, the nature of Israel's culture required outside brides.

This is the Bible's statement:
Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons.

Now, explain.
You previously noted yourself that Numbers comes before Deuteronomy. Angel

OK. Here's one from Exodus 34:15-17. Just so you know, Exodus comes before Numbers.

God is speaking to Moses.
"Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same."

Still care to explain your statement of Israelite culture requiring intermarriage, while YHWH forbids it?

Also, please quote chapter and verse to support your intermarriage "requirement".

Doc
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21-02-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 11:06 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. Here's one from Exodus 34:15-17. Just so you know, Exodus comes before Numbers.

God is speaking to Moses.
"Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same."
This argument has several problems:
- The scenario - making treaties with people and socializing with them - is much different from the Number scenario
- Although given before Numbers, the passage references a time after the events in Numbers, and references peoples other than those in the Numbers passage. Were you being sloppy or purposely misleading?
- Even if it were a general rule, it wouldn't mean that god couldn't make exceptions as he determined.
Quote:Still care to explain your statement of Israelite culture requiring intermarriage, while YHWH forbids it?
As noted, you haven't produced a general prohibition, and even if you did god could make exceptions as he chose.
Quote:Also, please quote chapter and verse to support your intermarriage "requirement".
I didn't present it as a Biblical command, but rather as a simple logical or mathematical conclusion. I'm surprised you don't understand the concept. It's very simple. If babies are born roughly 50/50 male/female, and some men take more than one wife, then not every man can have a wife, unless some are brought in from other cultures. Since great importance was placed on legitimate offspring, most every man wanted a wife. Get it now?
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21-02-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 12:07 PM)alpha male Wrote:  This argument has several problems:
- The scenario - making treaties with people and socializing with them - is much different from the Number scenario
- Although given before Numbers, the passage references a time after the events in Numbers, and references peoples other than those in the Numbers passage. Were you being sloppy or purposely misleading?
- Even if it were a general rule, it wouldn't mean that god couldn't make exceptions as he determined.
I didn't present it as a Biblical command, but rather as a simple logical or mathematical conclusion. I'm surprised you don't understand the concept. It's very simple. If babies are born roughly 50/50 male/female, and some men take more than one wife, then not every man can have a wife, unless some are brought in from other cultures. Since great importance was placed on legitimate offspring, most every man wanted a wife. Get it now?

No, you're the one being misleading. This command was given to Moses just after he was given the 10 Commandments before they got to the Promised Land. By your logic then, the 10 Commandments were also invalid till "a later time". It does not reference "peoples other than those in the Numbers passage". Here's the verse again, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices."

The Midianite genocide occurred after they entered the Promised Land when the laws were in place.

Your answer of God changing his mind when he chooses to do so is the correct one. He is a capricious, malicious, genocidal evil being (or would be, if he existed).

Meanwhile, think about this. Only 12,000 soldiers fought against Midian. Even assuming there were no casualties, it means that 12,000 men returned from battle. It was those 12,000 men that got 16,000 prepubescent girls as "booty". Pray tell how these girls were divided among the men.

You say that "great importance was placed on legitimate offspring, most every man wanted a wife". Is genocide, kidnapping and child-rape the way to go about it? How would that make the offspring "legitimate"? That too, from a marriage against God's express command? If intermarriage was acceptable, why not negotiate a marriage?

Incidentally, these men also got:
337,500 sheep
36,000 cattle
30,500 donkeys

Not a bad haul at all. They got their child-brides and their fortunes at the same time. How efficient.

Doc
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21-02-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 12:34 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  No, you're the one being misleading. This command was given to Moses just after he was given the 10 Commandments before they got to the Promised Land.
Exactly. The passage references the promised land: 12 Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.

They weren't there yet when this was given, and they weren't there yet when the Numbers events took place.
Quote:By your logic then, the 10 Commandments were also invalid till "a later time". It does not reference "peoples other than those in the Numbers passage". Here's the verse again, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices."
Yes it does: Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
Quote:The Midianite genocide occurred after they entered the Promised Land when the laws were in place.
No they weren't. Moses is in the Numbers passage. Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
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21-02-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(21-02-2014 12:47 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 12:34 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  No, you're the one being misleading. This command was given to Moses just after he was given the 10 Commandments before they got to the Promised Land.
Exactly. The passage references the promised land: 12 Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst.

They weren't there yet when this was given, and they weren't there yet when the Numbers events took place.
Quote:By your logic then, the 10 Commandments were also invalid till "a later time". It does not reference "peoples other than those in the Numbers passage". Here's the verse again, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices."
Yes it does: Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
Quote:The Midianite genocide occurred after they entered the Promised Land when the laws were in place.
No they weren't. Moses is in the Numbers passage. Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

I'll grant you that. They were not in the Promised Land when this incident occurred.

Let's just say God sanctioned child rape before they entered the Promised Land to the tune of 32,000 couplings (I won't say marriages because you can't show me a passage that confirms that) with girls, maybe producing some children. However, after they entered the Promised Land, the Israelites suddenly remembered they were not to do that. Correct? Is that what you are saying?

Doc
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