Why do Christians trust YHWH?
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19-02-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  He's on record for killing babies because he's mad at their parents. So, yeah, sometimes he kills when it's wrong.
I see it different way. I see that God is saving those children by taking them to a better place. Social services remove children from bad parents. Where does God suppose to place these kids? in desert? to other bad/evil people? or to a better place?

(19-02-2014 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Now, you can go on to tell me that I'm judging him with my human judgment and not his super-awesome God judgment (however that works)... but that's just playing into what I'm already saying.
You are making his murders just to justify them. How do you know he doesn't lie?
I am following your logic. He doesn't let me lie. But He let me sometimes to kill and He is doing the same. God let me to use my gun to defend myself.
I don't know He doesn't lie but I trust Him because He didn't give me any reason so far not to trust Him.

(19-02-2014 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You still haven't proven it. Just because someone tells you not to lie doesn't mean that he isn't capable of lying. All you've proven is "he told us not to lie", and nothing more. Any claim you make that he wouldn't/doesn't lie is seeded with the assumption that he doesn't lie.
I am not trying to prove anything. I am following your logic: if He kills then He may lie. But if He let me to kill sometimes and not to lie sometimes then He is doing the same - He kills sometimes and do not lie sometimes.

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19-02-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:29 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote: in normal life we have faith in things based on assessments of actual evidence.
Hardly. Few people make an objective analysis of actual evidence with regard to the most important things in life, like whom to marry or whether to have children. Same with less important choices. Didja see the ads in the Super Bowl? Most were selling a feeling and had little or no actual evidence that their product was better than the competition.

Most people do make informed desicions about possible spouses and children. And the adds are inteneded to trick or dupe people into buying something of little value to their lives - so this point does nothing to defend your decisions on faith, but actually make the obvious point (smokescreens and delusion work).

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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19-02-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:40 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Most people do make informed desicions about possible spouses and children.
Considering divorce rates, abortions and child abuse, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there.
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19-02-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  He's on record for killing babies because he's mad at their parents. So, yeah, sometimes he kills when it's wrong.
I see it different way. I see that God is saving those children by taking them to a better place. Social services remove children from bad parents. Where does God suppose to place these kids? in desert? to other bad/evil people? or to a better place?

Almighty God presumably has a lot more tools in his tool chest other than killing. If he created the universe, I'm sure he had some better options then "kill the parents and their kids because I'm mad at the adults".

If the ends justify the means here, shouldn't we all be offing ourselves at the earliest possibility to get (back in, for all the Mormons) to heaven? It seems, based on your (super creepy) apologetics that we're behaving rather sub-optimally.


(19-02-2014 04:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am not trying to prove anything. I am following your logic: if He kills then He may lie. But if He let me to kill sometimes and not to lie sometimes then He is doing the same - He kills sometimes and do not lie sometimes.

You're just giving him excuses for the killings to make it just to kill babies when he's mad at their parents.

Let me put it to you this way: if he had a good reason to lie to you, would he? Would it be just if he did?
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19-02-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
Robby - nice attempts, but if history teaches us anything, you will get nowhere fast!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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19-02-2014, 05:15 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Almighty God presumably has a lot more tools in his tool chest other than killing. If he created the universe, I'm sure he had some better options then "kill the parents and their kids because I'm mad at the adults".
Like what? He didn't want children to stay with evil/bad parents. Where should He place them?
And remember that God destroys only flesh and not spirit. Those children lived after death only in a better place and FREE from pain and suffering. If God killed their spirits I would agree with you.
(19-02-2014 04:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If the ends justify the means here, shouldn't we all be offing ourselves at the earliest possibility to get (back in, for all the Mormons) to heaven? It seems, based on your (super creepy) apologetics that we're behaving rather sub-optimally.
No, we have to go when God says it is time to go. If God placed those children to a better place it means it was their time to go.

(19-02-2014 04:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You're just giving him excuses for the killings to make it just to kill babies when he's mad at their parents.
If I believed that physical death is the end of the road I would agree with you. But I believe that God punished adults by taking from them their children. But did He punish children? Do Social Services punish children when they separate them from parents? Separate a child from a parent is evil someone can say. But ends justify the means. Children are placed in a better place.
(19-02-2014 04:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Let me put it to you this way: if he had a good reason to lie to you, would he? Would it be just if he did?
First, I don't believe that can be this kind of good reason.
Second, I don't believe He would lie if it was this kind of reason.

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19-02-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 04:29 PM)alpha male Wrote:  I don't find it to be...absurd.
how come you don't find stories of God creating universe in days absurd when in an objective reality day&night only exist if you live on earth?

don't you find it rather absurd that your God's scientific knowledge is limited to a certain time period?
Quote:Few people make an objective analysis of actual evidence with regard to the most important things in life, like whom to marry or whether to have children.
That's true but its still reasonable

for ex:when i go to a barber i have faith in him that he won't slit my throat although i don't have any objective evidence to support my faith it is still reasonable.. but the faith in any kind of religion specific God is simply absurd.

If you're a deist then you're fine but if you're a theist you really have to justify your beliefs in all those absurd stories.
Quote:Most were selling a feeling and had little or no actual evidence that their product was better than the competition.
Adverts aren't meant to be evidence of any kind if anything they're just meant to trick you into buying their stuff.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-02-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 05:20 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  I don't find it to be...absurd.
how come you don't find stories of God creating universe in days absurd when in an objective reality day&night only exist if you live on earth? [/quote]
Because I'm not pedantic.
Quote:don't you find it rather absurd that your God's scientific knowledge is limited to a certain time period?
I disagree with your assessment, and find it rather absurd that men of today speculate about time periods they can't observe and yet call it science.
Quote:for ex:when i go to a barber i have faith in him that he won't slit my throat although i don't have any objective evidence to support my faith it is still reasonable.. but the faith in any kind of religion specific God is simply absurd.
Considering the ubiquity of religion across time and cultures and the definition of absurd, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, mmkay?
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19-02-2014, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 05:57 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Why to Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 05:34 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Because I'm not pedantic.
Dude that's a non-sequitur.. Dodgy

Just be honest you don't think miracles are absurd? well i personally do because they defy&break the laws of physics as we know it and thus its absurd to believe in that otherwise i might as well believe in spiderman.
Quote:that men of today speculate about time periods they can't observe and yet call it science.
I'm not speculating anything i'm merely pointing out the scientific illiteracy of all the ancient literature quran,bible,Vedas anything.

Keep in mind that one of these ancient literature is supposed to be directly inspired words of God himself and yet it cannot even match the 3rd grade science of today.
Quote:Considering the ubiquity of religion across time and cultures
What is that supposed to mean? people used to believe all kinds of crazy stuff back in days basically you're just committing argumentum ad populum fallacy.
Quote:and the definition of absurd
Faith in the unreasonable is absurd.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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19-02-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Why do Christians trust YHWH?
(19-02-2014 05:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  No, we have to go when God says it is time to go. If God placed those children to a better place it means it was their time to go.

So, social services should be killing children instead of trying to take care of them? When social services places a kid with a better family, are they behaving more morally or less morally than YHWH?

If a human kills a person, and YHWH lets them, was it that person's time to go? If so, if we all killed ourselves to get to heaven, wouldn't it, by definition, be our time to go?


(19-02-2014 05:15 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 04:58 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Let me put it to you this way: if he had a good reason to lie to you, would he? Would it be just if he did?
First, I don't believe that can be this kind of good reason.
Second, I don't believe He would lie if it was this kind of reason.

Why? How can you question an all-powerful god?
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