Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
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10-09-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
(10-09-2015 10:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 10:07 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  This is the most nonsensical thing I've heard in a long time. Do you think that the only proper position from which you can debunk a claim is one of belief in that claim?

No, not a belief in that claim, but a belief in a counter claim/belief, or a counter set of beliefs.

A belief in a few thousands year old earth, is debunked by a belief in a much older earth, and things which support that position better than it's alternative here.

That case works and adds more strength to it.

But debunking something without an established properly defined alternative is still absolutely acceptable and not some issue. You don't need to prove or claim something else counter to it to prove or claim something is false.

I don't need to claim who actually stole the cookies from the cookie jar to establish and prove the claim that it wasn't me. That it's left up to an unknown at the present moment is fine.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-09-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
(10-09-2015 10:05 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  You seem to be either making the assumption that belief is necessary or you're saying that adopting a skeptical perspective is trivial.

I'd claim I adopt the skeptical perspective all the time, but I'm aware of the fact that even this skepticism arises out a series of beliefs that I hold, that sit in the background of things I'm skeptical about. And sometimes that skepticism is entirely a product of my beliefs.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-09-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
(10-09-2015 10:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't need to claim who actually stole the cookies from the cookie jar to establish and prove the claim that it wasn't me. That it's left up to an unknown at the present moment is fine.

No, you would do so by showing that it wasn't you. That you were somewhere else at the time the cookie went missing. That you have a gluten allergy, so you wouldn't be stealing cookies, etc...


You're not particularly debunking the claim that it was stolen, but just that you were not the thief. With a series of other claims that indicate your innocence, and absolve you of the crimes.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-09-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
@Tomasia

Sorry if I took your comment has an ad hominem attack. Being an historian and a high school/college level history teacher, I have a tendency of seeing anybody calling me ignorant on the very basic of history has personal insult. Especially since I have a very good understanding of Ancient Hebrew, Ptolemaic Greek and Classical Roman culture and history despite that not being my specialty (I am more specialised in the 19th century, early 20th century history with a focus on social revolution). That's actually why I am an atheist. Those religion aren't fundamentally true, they are the expression of a history and a culture at a specific time in its history. Every good philosophical point or actual usable knowledge can either be traced to early proto-scientific observations from that time or prior to it or stop watch phenomenon where someone who's consistently wrong stumble by chance or skill on something right once in a while.

I will agree on you that some atheist critique of religion or more specifically Christianity are stupid and demonstrably false like «Religion is the worst thing ever made and responsible for most wars and conflict. », «For Good people to do bad thing, you need religion. », «Religion were made to oppress [insert your group here]» or «Religious people are all delusional». Other arguments like those against the historicity of the Gospel, the Creation Myth, the inherent truth of the Bible/Sacred Book, the immortal nature of the soul, the active nature of God, etc. are very good arguments against a specific religion or creed based on skeptical inquiry and are very well supported by decades if not century of research and intellectual development. You can't simply brush them aside because of personal preferences.

The foundation of your beliefs were discredited the day they started to show what they actually were: ad hoc explanation for various phenomenon, historical events and wide sprayed beliefs of the people of that time and region. Religious people today do the exact same thing. On this forum, Alla is the absolute champion of ad hoc explanation. Her interpretation of Mormonism is extraordinary and consistent yet still not demonstrably true. I could use them strategy then her to start my own religion. That’s how the FSM started. I could easily brush you a portrait of God changing slowly over the century from a conquering warlord, to a vengeful force nature, to a father figure, a wise men and healer, to a cosmic entity that rule from afar has the people revering him changed. Religion has become a castle in the cloud. Scientific facts and social changes cut off its roots and showed them to be false. Now, it floats in the void, still existing because of the power of our imagination, desire, fears and probabilistic fallacies. It's impossible to attack it, but it's also useless to defend yourself.

Ridicule and mockery have various roles. If we return to the original subject of the thread, creationism, the fact that this idea is still held like an absolute truth by a significant group of person is surprising and worth mockery. Nobody would hesitate mocking a man who claim racialism has true and racialism was only demonstrated false in the 70's while creationism was demonstrated has bogus since the late 18th century. What do you do when people believe absolute non-sense like that or a flat Earth? At some point. If held ridiculous idea, you are bound to be ridicule. Considering all that is so strongly contested by demonstrable evidence about Christianity, it's not so surprising that it gets ridicule once in a while.
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31-10-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
I read the entire post and cannot find one single point besides "creationists deserve to be mocked real good". Was there some deeper point you were getting to?
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31-10-2015, 06:05 PM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
(31-10-2015 05:57 PM)Brandon Poirier Wrote:  I read the entire post and cannot find one single point besides "creationists deserve to be mocked real good". Was there some deeper point you were getting to?

Welcome to TTA, Brandon.

Can we assume that you are replying to the OP?

If so... sometimes the members here simply need to let off steam to alleviate some frustration. There doesn't have to be a deeper point.

If not ... please use the 'reply' button so others can work out to whom you are replying.

Cheers

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31-10-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
There needed to be more?

Actually, I think Ep did an excellent job of listening exactly why they deserve the ridicule they receive.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-10-2015, 06:43 PM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
(31-10-2015 05:57 PM)Brandon Poirier Wrote:  I read the entire post and cannot find one single point besides "creationists deserve to be mocked real good". Was there some deeper point you were getting to?

It sort of depends on the situation. As was said, we need to let off steam. What if someone insisted the universe was created when a magical slug pissed into a cup and the earth was its booger? That's how it feels to us. So, yeah, we need to let off steam because people insist on creationism.

Secondly, it's the internet. Is there ever really a point?

Thirdly, many TTA threads go off on tangents. Sometimes they go off on sines and cosines, but then return to the previous arc.

16/4-ly, it should be "really," since that's an adverb.
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02-11-2015, 03:33 AM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
For most it would seem, it is hard to know that they've devoted their life to a lie, and that their stake in the afterlife is a mirage.

It resembles genuine mental illness, but it only applies to their faith. They've only words to defend their invisible friends because all actions verify His absence. Would God catch you if you fall? If so then feel free to prove it by jumping off a skyscraper. Suddenly faith isn't a reasonable solution, and here's where the excuses come flooding in.
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02-11-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Why do Creationists keep using the same old arguments?
I believe that one reason why you hear the same arguments is probably because a lot of theist choose not to think for themselves. As some may already know, I am a Christian who is studying to become a military chaplain. I have found that more often that not, christians will rather memorize some preprogrammed response to gotcha questions rather than activity do their own research. They simply hit the "I believe" button and then get frustrated when they do not work the way they thought.
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