Why do atheists become atheists?
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20-01-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(19-01-2015 09:06 PM)Free Wrote:  It is the agnostic/atheistic 6.9 and under position that makes the assumption that a god either exists or possibly exists.
This is utter garbage.

If I say that I disbelieve that big foot exists it does not mean that I assume that big foot exists, that would be contradictory.
It also does not mean that I assume it is possible that big foot exists, my position of disbelief is not a position on possibilities.

A position of disbelief is merely an acceptance that there is inadequate knowledge. a.k.a. not enough supporting evidence both for or against.
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20-01-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(19-01-2015 10:31 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Into the melee.

So Free is inferring that there are no gods because of the absence of evidence.

Chas does not infer this from the absence of evidence.

So...

"Thus, what people call the "you can't prove a negative" axiom is actually nothing more than the eternal problem of induction: since we can't test a proposition in every place and at every time, we can never be absolutely certain that the proposition remains true in all times and places. We can only infer it. ~ Richard Carrier

The above would support Chas’ position.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/richa...heory.html

That is Richard Carrier's position in 1999. It is greatly outdated. Aside from that, Carrier is unqualified to make this assertion. He is a historian, not a logician. As mentioned, 100% of logicians agree that you can actually prove a negative.

Quote:LEA (Lack-of-evidence Argument)

(A) Probably, if God were to exist, then there would be good objective evidence for that.
(B) But there is no good objective evidence for God's existence.
© Therefore, probably God does not exist.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/theod...vslea.html

The key to me here is the word “probably” which would support Chas.

Another religious philosopher unqualified as a logician.

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20-01-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 12:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-01-2015 09:06 PM)Free Wrote:  It is the agnostic/atheistic 6.9 and under position that makes the assumption that a god either exists or possibly exists.
This is utter garbage.

If I say that I disbelieve that big foot exists it does not mean that I assume that big foot exists, that would be contradictory.
It also does not mean that I assume it is possible that big foot exists, my position of disbelief is not a position on possibilities.

A position of disbelief is merely an acceptance that there is inadequate knowledge. a.k.a. not enough supporting evidence both for or against.

Let me demonstrate to you with one question:

Is it possible God exists?

If you say "no" you are 7.0

Any other answer aside from no is a 6.9 or less. "I don't know" means you do not know whether or not a god exists, therefore leaving the possibility.

So what's your answer?

Cool

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20-01-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
Atheism, like freedom, is the default position for the human species.

Then priests, witch doctors and scientists came along. They used a mixture of the supernatural and fear to gain power and acceptance, altering the lives of everyone else.

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20-01-2015, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2015 02:15 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 12:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This is utter garbage.

If I say that I disbelieve that big foot exists it does not mean that I assume that big foot exists, that would be contradictory.
It also does not mean that I assume it is possible that big foot exists, my position of disbelief is not a position on possibilities.

A position of disbelief is merely an acceptance that there is inadequate knowledge. a.k.a. not enough supporting evidence both for or against.

Let me demonstrate to you with one question:

Is it possible God exists?

If you say "no" you are 7.0

Any other answer aside from no is a 6.9 or less. "I don't know" means you do not know whether or not a god exists, therefore leaving the possibility.

So what's your answer?

Cool

And saying I don't know isn't an assumption of something being probable... Facepalm

Does it leave the possibility.. sure... does it assume it? No.

Are you qualified as an logician to make a statement on what is accepted as current logic? Is anyone? Should anyone be? Can there be some universal agreed upon status or believe on how certain ideas and topics are defined?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-01-2015, 02:16 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  Let me demonstrate to you with one question:

Is it possible God exists?

If you say "no" you are 7.0

Any other answer aside from no is a 6.9 or less. "I don't know" means you do not know whether or not a god exists, therefore leaving the possibility.

So what's your answer?
My answer is that I don't know how to calculate the possibilities of the existence of gods.
In order to calculate the possibilities I would have thought I would need to know some measurable and testable properties of the god.
In order to know of the measurable properties I would have thought I would need a definition for gods which is testable and falsifiable.

My question back to you
"How do you decide if something (in this case "god") is possible without having a verifiable definition?"
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20-01-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(12-01-2015 06:39 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Sooner or later, everyone is exposed to the idea that it is possible to not believe in a god, or at least act like you don't. Some people look into this new viewpoint and become atheists. Some people recoil like a cat hit by water and scream at the position until it goes away, remaining theists.

Sometimes, I wonder why that is. What is it that causes some people to accept that their faith is wrong, while others who see the exact same evidence, can't accept that?

Anyone else think about this? Got any ideas? All I can think of is basic open-mindedness.

Edit: I guess it's be better to say "What makes atheists go back to atheism" since it's the default before indoctrination. Or, "What makes atheists stay atheists if they weren't indoctrinated but exposed later".

Because we think without someone telling us what to believe. Not that hard to understand.

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20-01-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(12-01-2015 06:39 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Sooner or later, everyone is exposed to the idea that it is possible to not believe in a god, or at least act like you don't. Some people look into this new viewpoint and become atheists. Some people recoil like a cat hit by water and scream at the position until it goes away, remaining theists.

Sometimes, I wonder why that is. What is it that causes some people to accept that their faith is wrong, while others who see the exact same evidence, can't accept that?

Anyone else think about this? Got any ideas? All I can think of is basic open-mindedness.

Edit: I guess it's be better to say "What makes atheists go back to atheism" since it's the default before indoctrination. Or, "What makes atheists stay atheists if they weren't indoctrinated but exposed later".

My experience is that either fear or selfishness, or the degree to which an individual possesses one or both of them, is a huge factor for why a person does anything, not to exclude their positions on faith. For faith, fear especially seems to play a major role. I personally know many, many intelligent people who cling to some version of faith, and my observations of these folks would lead me to believe they are fearful of some aspect beyond their control. So, they turn to faith and the eternal begging for luck to get them through it. It appears to me this is especially true when their children are brought into play. A mother's fear for her children, whether it be for them to prematurely leave this mortal coil, or, when the time comes for them to do so to not end up in eternal damnation, seems to be a strong motivator for religion, praying, and blind hope in that big karma stick in the sky to prevent those things from befalling their beloved offspring. And, of course, they then perpetrate this mindset onto those beloved children in an effort to include them in the saving graces.

Perhaps when it comes to faith and belief it depends on what it is you are most fearful of. Are you afraid of death, of spending an eternity in torment? Or are you afraid of wasting that one precious shot at life you've been given on pernicious, life stealing superstition?
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20-01-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 02:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Are you qualified as a logician
This is a great question, because it seems to me that our resident logician is getting tripped up on basic logic.

Premisis:
Person A can have a belief regarding the possibility of the existence of X or can lack a belief regarding the possibility of X
Person A can have a belief regarding the existence of X or can lack a belief regarding the existence of X
If person A has a belief regarding the possibility of the existence of X then that belief must be either:
- It is possible for X to exist
- It is not possible for X to exist

Scenarios:
S1 person A believes that it is possible for X to exist then they have the following options:
- O1 - believe that X does not exist
- O2 - lack a belief in the existence of X
- O3 - belief that X exists
S2 person A believes that it is not possible for X to exist then they only have one option:
- O1 - believe that X does not exist
S3 person A lacks a belief in the possibility of the existence of X then they have the following options:
- O1 - believe that X does not exist
- O2 - lack a belief in the existence of X

Free adheres to S2-O1 but he refers to his position as a position of fact rather than belief
I adhere to S3-O2 and I refer to my position as a lack of belief
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20-01-2015, 06:53 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 02:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  Let me demonstrate to you with one question:

Is it possible God exists?

If you say "no" you are 7.0

Any other answer aside from no is a 6.9 or less. "I don't know" means you do not know whether or not a god exists, therefore leaving the possibility.

So what's your answer?

Cool

And saying I don't know isn't an assumption of something being probable... Facepalm

Since I never said "probable," nice try, but no cigar.

Probable = likely.
Possible = anything infinitesimal to near certainty.

Quote:Does it leave the possibility.. sure... does it assume it?

Assumption is irrelevant. It's the possibility that matters.

Quote:Are you qualified as an logician to make a statement on what is accepted as current logic?

I don't need to be, since I am using the logicians themselves.

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