Why do atheists become atheists?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-01-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 06:53 PM)Free Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 02:11 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And saying I don't know isn't an assumption of something being probable... Facepalm

Since I never said "probable," nice try, but no cigar.

Probable = likely.
Possible = anything infinitesimal to near certainty.

Quote:Does it leave the possibility.. sure... does it assume it?

Assumption is irrelevant. It's the possibility that matters.

Quote:Are you qualified as an logician to make a statement on what is accepted as current logic?

I don't need to be, since I am using the logicians themselves.

Sorry I said probably when I meant to quote you on possible.

I agree that assumption is irrelevant, but you are the one saying others position is making that assumption... which is an inaccurate statement. You are making it relevant as it comes off douchey for you to make such a claim. If you don't think something is relevant.. why adamantly say it? And so what to what logicians say? why do their "current" logic stances matter?

The possibility doesn't actually matter.. To you it may matter, I'm not sure why though. If it's some kind of.. oh no that gives theists holes type of reason.. then that's not relevant to me but I don't see a reason to care for it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2015, 07:41 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2015 08:20 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 07:09 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 06:53 PM)Free Wrote:  Since I never said "probable," nice try, but no cigar.

Probable = likely.
Possible = anything infinitesimal to near certainty.


Assumption is irrelevant. It's the possibility that matters.


I don't need to be, since I am using the logicians themselves.

Sorry I said probably when I meant to quote you on possible.

I agree that assumption is irrelevant, but you are the one saying others position is making that assumption... which is an inaccurate statement. You are making it relevant as it comes off douchey for you to make such a claim. If you don't think something is relevant.. why adamantly say it?

Because it is not an assumption when I say that those who say "I don't know" do subscribe to the possibility that a supernatural god exists. Persons such as yourself, Chas, and others say, "You cannot prove God doesn't exist," which instantly and logically demonstrates that since it is your belief that I cannot prove that God doesn't exist, then it is possible that God does exist.

That is the entire point of this argument. That is exactly why those who hold to 6.9 do not move forward to 7.0. Those who hold to the 6.0 position on the Dawkins Scale subscribe to the description which says:

6 - Defacto Atheist: "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable."

Very improbable = at the very least, some small degree of possibility.

Quote: And so what to what logicians say? why do their "current" logic stances matter?

The point of the logicians is to show that they all agree that proving a negative is indeed possible. This directly translates to proving the non existence of God. That's the whole point. This is the argument I use to convince those who hold to a 6.0 position on the Dawkins Scale that the evidence demonstrates that God does not exist, and therefore it is perfectly reasonable to graduate to a 7.0 status.

7 - Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

Aside from all this, whenever anyone says "You cannot prove God doesn't exist," such statements are intended to shift the burden of proof, and therefore represent a logical fallacy. When 6.0 Atheists such as Chas and others make this statement, their argument is wholly fallacious and is disqualified as being an argument at all. Hence, they have absolutely no basis whatsoever to remain in a 6.0 position.

Using a logically fallacious argument is no good excuse to remain at 6.0.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 07:41 PM)Free Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 07:09 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Sorry I said probably when I meant to quote you on possible.

I agree that assumption is irrelevant, but you are the one saying others position is making that assumption... which is an inaccurate statement. You are making it relevant as it comes off douchey for you to make such a claim. If you don't think something is relevant.. why adamantly say it?

Because it is not an assumption when I say that those who say "I don't know" do subscribe to the possibility that a supernatural god exists. Persons such as yourself, Chas, and others say, "You cannot prove God doesn't exist," which instantly and logically demonstrates that since it is your belief that I cannot prove that God doesn't exist, then it is possible that God does exist.

That is the entire point of this argument. That is exactly why those who hold to 6.9 do not move forward to 7.0. Those who hold to the 6.0 position on the Dawkins Scale subscribe to the description which says:

6 - Defacto Atheist: "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable."

Very improbable = at the very least, some small degree of possibility.

Quote: And so what to what logicians say? why do their "current" logic stances matter?

The point of the logicians is to show that they all agree that proving a negative is indeed possible. This directly translates to proving the non existence of God. That's the whole point. This is the argument I use to convince those who hold to a 6.0 position on the Dawkins Scale that the evidence demonstrates that God does not exist, and therefore it is perfectly fine to graduate to a 7.0 status.

7 - Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.

Yes... I know it's not wrong to assume us who say I don't know believe the possibility... that's not the phrase you used I'm talking about. Your words are directly above having been quoted multiple times. You stated we make the assumption there is a possibility... but we are not in a position of MAKING an assumption. That is the issue I have by your altering the concept of what the position actually is.

You don't seem to get the last point.. It's why should I care what the CURRENT logicians think? What is the merit that makes them a strong core to trust? where is this timeframe of old logic to new logic you speak of? What timelines are relevant? 20 years and 40 years ago are outdated? How do you know these current ones won't be seen as outdated 20-40 years?

You can call this perceptual skepticism absurd, pointless, or meticulous but I don't care if it is or not. It's what HAS to happen if you care about what you hold as being the most possible true thing.

This is why I brought up the Personality-type trait. Because interestingly so the most common types on these boards happen to really respect that to a intense manner while others may not.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ClydeLee's post
20-01-2015, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2015 09:10 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 08:18 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You stated we make the assumption there is a possibility... but we are not in a position of MAKING an assumption. That is the issue I have by your altering the concept of what the position actually is.

I never said that.


Quote:You don't seem to get the last point.. It's why should I care what the CURRENT logicians think? What is the merit that makes them a strong core to trust? where is this timeframe of old logic to new logic you speak of? What timelines are relevant? 20 years and 40 years ago are outdated? How do you know these current ones won't be seen as outdated 20-40 years?

Because they represent the current best state of our knowledge. In days gone by, centuries before, the current state of knowledge during those times is what people trusted, and some of that knowledge was tainted by religious beliefs.

As time went forward and science progressed, greater honesty was applied to what actually constituted knowledge, and therefore the knowledge we have today is not only vastly superior, but the truthfulness behind the methodology in the acquisition of modern knowledge cannot even be compared to even just 200 years ago.

Modern knowledge is far more honest than it was in times past, and far more accurate. Therefore, we need to deal with, and trust, the current state of our knowledge rather than compare it to the past, or hypothesize about any future knowledge.

And the current state of our knowledge demonstrates that God does not exist.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
The words are right in my face!! It's right in post 194..... just I have no more words Facepalm

(19-01-2015 09:06 PM)Free Wrote:  It is the agnostic/atheistic 6.9 and under position that makes the assumption that a god either exists or possibly exists.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ClydeLee's post
20-01-2015, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 20-01-2015 09:22 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 09:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The words are right in my face!! It's right in post 194..... just I have no more words Facepalm

(19-01-2015 09:06 PM)Free Wrote:  It is the agnostic/atheistic 6.9 and under position that makes the assumption that a god either exists or possibly exists.

You quoted ME as saying:

Quote:You stated we make the assumption there is a possibility

I never said that. What I said was:

It is the agnostic/atheistic 6.9 and under position that makes the assumption that a god either exists or possibly exists.

It's the POSITION, and that position is:

6 - Defacto Atheist: "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable."

It is also true for, 5.0, 4.0, etc.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-01-2015, 09:27 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
1. The utter absurdity of the basic Christian equation became clear to me:
- All powerful, perfect, all-knowing creator of universe decides after infinite amount of time he wants companions
- Creates companions, places in situation in which he knows they will "fail"
- Curses all their descendants for all time
- Hangs out for a few thousand years before getting the great idea to:
* Incarnate himself
* Allow himself to be captured and executed
* To "forgive" the sins of the hapless critters he created, um, to sin

Horse. Fucking. Shit.

Also:

DNA—No Adam and Eve, no need for Jesus
Sex obsession
Germ theory of disease
Ridiculous contortions of apologists

And good riddance.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2015, 12:08 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(20-01-2015 07:41 PM)Free Wrote:  those who say "I don't know" do subscribe to the possibility that a supernatural god exists.
Nope, this is a very, very poor application of logic.

Saying "I don't know" isn't a proclamation that it is possible.

"I don't know" means, well to put it clearly and succinctly, it means "I don't know".

If I don't know if it is possible or not then I say "I don't know". I am making no claim as to whether something is possible.

(20-01-2015 07:41 PM)Free Wrote:  Persons such as yourself, Chas, and others say, "You cannot prove God doesn't exist," which instantly and logically demonstrates that since it is your belief that I cannot prove that God doesn't exist, then it is possible that God does exist.
Again, a very poor application of logic.

We are not saying that it is possible that god exists. We are saying that you cannot prove that god doesn't exist, maybe god does exist, maybe god doesn't. We don't even know if god's existence is possible or not.
We are not making any claim as to the possibility of god's existence.

Just remember this simple phrase.
"I don't know means I don't know"

(20-01-2015 07:41 PM)Free Wrote:  Very improbable = at the very least, some small degree of possibility.
Nope, that's yet again a very poor and incorrect application of logic.
The uncertainty has to do with having no evidence, no clear defintion. It has nothing to do with a belief that god's existence is possible.

If asked the question
"Is god's existence possible?"
The answer would be "I don't know"

And remember
"I don't know means I don't know"




(20-01-2015 07:41 PM)Free Wrote:  Using a logically fallacious argument is no good excuse to remain at 6.0.
Having a poor grasp of logic is no good excuse to put yourself at 7.
Really you need to focus on finding some evidence, providing a falsifiable definition of god that everyone agrees with and showing how your evidence falsifies this definition.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Stevil's post
21-01-2015, 04:49 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
For me it was a much slower process than what I think you imagine it to be. I was brought up in a religious household. We weren't brimstone spitters but went to church each week, socialized with other like minded people, raised money for charity when asked, etc...
Over a period of many years I slowly found myself first not following my church any more, and then realizing that in all likelihood there was no foundation for my beliefs to begin with.
I am not angry at god, I am not angry at religion, I do not hold any one who does believe to be inferior in any way to me.
I just don't believe

The secret to a happy life is lowering your expectations to the point where they are already met
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-01-2015, 05:27 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(12-01-2015 06:39 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  Sooner or later, everyone is exposed to the idea that it is possible to not believe in a god, or at least act like you don't. Some people look into this new viewpoint and become atheists. Some people recoil like a cat hit by water and scream at the position until it goes away, remaining theists.

Sometimes, I wonder why that is. What is it that causes some people to accept that their faith is wrong, while others who see the exact same evidence, can't accept that?

Anyone else think about this? Got any ideas? All I can think of is basic open-mindedness.

Edit: I guess it's be better to say "What makes atheists go back to atheism" since it's the default before indoctrination. Or, "What makes atheists stay atheists if they weren't indoctrinated but exposed later".

For me as person from a strong religious background ( been a lay preacher/Evangelist/ Apostle for more ten years) it was the bible that turned me to be a non-believer, I read that book, I think more than my peers. eventually I started questioning, and I started researching, comparing, verifying the historicity of most of the staff and ....BOOOM! I remembered that there were once a kind of people that I used to preach against, even condemning them to eternal torture because ........there were Atheists!!!! I asked myself if was I becoming one? It felt comfortable, relaxing and very appetising. 4 years after I am a Free thinking Humanist!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: