Why do atheists become atheists?
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21-01-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 04:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 03:26 PM)Free Wrote:  It is not a matter of a claim; it is necessarily implicit. If you do not know, then you cannot eliminate either the possibility nor impossibility.

Full stop.
Sure.
I haven't eliminated either scenario, thus I'm on the fence and my position is "I don't know".
Me not eliminating the option of "possibility" does not mean that I believe it is possible.
I also haven't eliminated the option of "impossibility" so I don't have a belief that it is impossible.
If you are going to insist that me not eliminating the option of "possibility" means that I have a belief that it is possible, to be consistent you will also need to assert that me not eliminating the option of "impossibility" means that I have a belief that it is impossible.

That is exactly what I have been saying, ffs.

How is it that you are finally getting it now after 3 freaking pages?


Quote:Your position (of my beliefs) means that you insist that I believe both that it is possible and also believe that it is impossible. You have me believing two contradictory things at the same time. Which is absurd.

No, they are not contradictory. When you are in a state of a lack of knowledge either way, it necessarily implies that you cannot eliminate either the possibility or impossibility.

Why? Because you don't fucking know.

Quote:However, my position is that there isn't enough information to determine whether it is possible or impossible. I am not about to wave my hand and discount either one. So I remain focused on "I don't know" rather than to believe either one.

And again, because you do not know, the possibility and impossibility are still in existence to your position. It matters not what you believe, because it's not a matter of what you believe, but rather it is a state of uncertainty.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-01-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, no one in history has ever demonstrated the knowledge necessary to postulate a probability or possibility of a god.
Because no falsifiable, testable definition has ever been provided.
(21-01-2015 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The burden of proof remains on those making god claims.
Absolutely, and first they need to provide a falsifiable, testable definition before presenting any evidence.
(21-01-2015 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And the argument isn't that ignorance = impossible, the argument is that lack of knowledge = burden of proof not met, which = possibility and probability remain ~0.
I disagree with this.
Lack of definition, lack of evidence, lack of knowledge means that the proponents need to put more effort into their definition before anyone else is to take their claim seriously. We can't assess the probabilities/possibilities until they have provided enough information to perform that task. At the moment we have nothing to go on. There seems no point entertaining their ideas because there is no way to validate it.

The human imagination can come up with an infinite amount of ideas but there are only a finite amount of truths. Finite is infinitesimally small when compared with the infinite. The chances on these guys hitting on the truth is very small. But I can't even begin to assess the probabilities/possibilities of the existence of gods because not enough information has been provided to do so.

(21-01-2015 03:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Like I said, the ability to perceive of it in the imagination does not mean its probability immediately exceeds 0.
The lack of evidence doesn't mean that the probability is 0. All it means is that they need to put more effort into their definition and towards finding evidence. The burdon is on them.
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21-01-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:  And again, because you do not know, the possibility and impossibility are still in existence to your position. It matters not what you believe, because it's not a matter of what you believe, but rather it is a state of uncertainty.

This ^

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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21-01-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:  How is it that you are finally getting it now after 3 freaking pages?
I'm not getting what you are saying. You're logic is fundamentally and demonstrably flawed.

(21-01-2015 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Your position (of my beliefs) means that you insist that I believe both that it is possible and also believe that it is impossible. You have me believing two contradictory things at the same time. Which is absurd.

No, they are not contradictory. When you are in a state of a lack of knowledge either way, it necessarily implies that you cannot eliminate either the possibility or impossibility.
I can't belief in both at the same time, they are contradictory.
(21-01-2015 04:34 PM)Free Wrote:  It matters not what you believe, because it's not a matter of what you believe,
Just a reminder, You are insisting to me that I believe gods are possible.
This is the point that I am arguing against because I hold no such belief.
So it is crucial whether I believe or lack belief.
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21-01-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 04:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Just a reminder, You are insisting to me that I believe gods are possible.
This is the point that I am arguing against because I hold no such belief.
So it is crucial whether I believe or lack belief.

Then welcome to the 7.0 club, because the 7.0 club has no beliefs.

If you are anything less, then you have some degree of belief in the possibility and non possibility of god existing. Whenever you say "I don't know," you are agnostic. Period.

Whenever you say, "God does not exist," it expresses knowledge and not a belief. It is a statement of fact.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-01-2015, 05:19 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 05:14 PM)Free Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 04:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Just a reminder, You are insisting to me that I believe gods are possible.
This is the point that I am arguing against because I hold no such belief.
So it is crucial whether I believe or lack belief.

Then welcome to the 7.0 club, because the 7.0 club has no beliefs.

If you are anything less, then you have some degree of belief in the possibility and non possibility of god existing. Whenever you say "I don't know," you are agnostic. Period.

Whenever you say, "God does not exist," it expresses knowledge and not a belief. It is a statement of fact.

You have not proved that as a fact.

You misunderstand how logical proof works.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-01-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 05:14 PM)Free Wrote:  Then welcome to the 7.0 club, because the 7.0 club has no beliefs.

If you are anything less, then you have some degree of belief in the possibility and non possibility of god existing. Whenever you say "I don't know," you are agnostic. Period.

Whenever you say, "God does not exist," it expresses knowledge and not a belief. It is a statement of fact.

You have not proved that as a fact.

You misunderstand how logical proof works.

That's an assertion with no basis for support and is summarily dismissed.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-01-2015, 05:27 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 05:21 PM)Free Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 05:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  You have not proved that as a fact.

You misunderstand how logical proof works.

That's an assertion with no basis for support and is summarily dismissed.

Big Grin

It has been supported multiple times in multiple ways by multiple posters. So, there's that.
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21-01-2015, 05:28 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 05:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 05:21 PM)Free Wrote:  That's an assertion with no basis for support and is summarily dismissed.

Big Grin

It has been supported multiple times in multiple ways by multiple posters. So, there's that.

No it hasn't.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-01-2015, 05:31 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(21-01-2015 05:28 PM)Free Wrote:  
(21-01-2015 05:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  It has been supported multiple times in multiple ways by multiple posters. So, there's that.

No it hasn't.

Big Grin

I dismiss your ignorant assertion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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