Why do atheists become atheists?
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22-01-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 11:52 AM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 11:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  From your link you are trying to use to make your points. [/b]

You are making a knowledge claim by stating you know god doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on both 1 and 7 positions.

Yes, and I showed the reasoning and evidence to support my claim, which no one here has disputed in any way. Not that i am in any way obligated to prove that position, since the burden of proof is always upon anyone making a claim of the existence of God, or possible existence.

Therefore, unless you actually address my reasoning and evidence- which not one of you has- it remains undisputed. Merely asserting that my position isn't correct is meaningless unless you successfully demonstrate why.

And none of you have. Not a single one.

Drinking Beverage

You're just ignoring your own attempts at sources now? That source even indicated SINCE THEY ARE MAKING A KNOWLEDGE CLAIM... they have the burden of proof, That's what creates a burden of proof.

You do the same thing here you did in the topics about the big bang-big crunch and other universal topics. For some reason you lock in and assume humans are capable of making definitive judgements based on our current knowledge. Despite constant historical evidence of how humans are often wrong.

I've explained it prior, this "supernatural" therefore automatically invalid is an illogical claim... people think it's supernatural NOW which doesn't mean it actually has to be. Lightning was called supernatural, (germs) were too as in why we get sick, and the elemental forces were supernatural.... even thinking of an outside of the box topic 500 years ago, like black holes, would seem to be lacking ANY evidence. Just because humans had no reason or evidence to believe blackholes existed, doesn't mean it didn't exist. They didn't have tools or enough knowledge of the universe to know of it.

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22-01-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:22 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  "...something that does not"

Consider and you know this for certain because why?

Because there has never been a single shred of evidence to support anything existing in a supernatural state. This is called "evidence of the absence of evidence." This differs from "absence of evidence is not evidence" because evidence of absence is evidence itself, where the absence of evidence is not evidence at all.

Since there is negative proof, there is negative in existence. Existence is defined as that which can be detected in some way. If it cannot be detected in nature- such as something that cannot naturally exist such as supernatural- then it does not meet the requirement to determine existence.


Quote:BTW no one knew that black swans existed in nature until one was found.

False comparison; natural verses supernatural.

"Evidence of the absence of evidence" is compelling, however looking back throughout human history, in particular the last 500 years, we as a species have continually discovered things that not only did we not suspect existed but were even possible.

Based on this evidence of our limitations I cannot logically discount for what we may yet find. The intellectually honest position is a 6 and not a 7.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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22-01-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:27 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:09 PM)Free Wrote:  It is not unreasonable to say "God does not exist" when there is no evidence to support existence of any kind. It is no more dishonest to say "God does not exist" than it is to say "1000 pink elephants are living in your anus."

It is absolutely just as intellectually dishonest to say "You cannot prove God doesn't exist" as it is to say, "You cannot prove that 1000 pink elephants are living in your anus."

Both accusations shift the burden of proof, are fallacious, and therefore are intellectually dishonest.

The burden of proof is always upon the one claiming existence, and never on anyone else.

Change "1000 pink elephants in your anus" for Black swans and now you see the problem with your absolutism.

Even if we say "1000 black swans are in your anus" ... is that reasonable? Is it logical? Some credit needs to be given to what is truthful, what is honest, and what has a chance of being true.

Hence saying "You cannot prove that 1000 black swans are not in your anus" is no more intellectually honest than saying "You cannot prove God does not exist.

Quote:I'm not asking for proof of anything but I'm not totally discounting the infinitesimal possibility. I'll go on living my life as though gods do not exist without saying that they absolutely do not.

All I am tasking anyone here to do is to get honest with themselves. When people can claim supernatural possibilities with no evidence to support such claims, it gives carte blanche for anyone to claim that anything can possibly exist just because we supposedly cannot prove that it doesn't.

That's fallacious logic, and a disgrace to humanity.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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22-01-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:22 PM)Free Wrote:  Because there has never been a single shred of evidence to support anything existing in a supernatural state. This is called "evidence of the absence of evidence." This differs from "absence of evidence is not evidence" because evidence of absence is evidence itself, where the absence of evidence is not evidence at all.

Since there is negative proof, there is negative in existence. Existence is defined as that which can be detected in some way. If it cannot be detected in nature- such as something that cannot naturally exist such as supernatural- then it does not meet the requirement to determine existence.



False comparison; natural verses supernatural.

"Evidence of the absence of evidence" is compelling, however looking back throughout human history, in particular the last 500 years, we as a species have continually discovered things that not only did we not suspect existed but were even possible.

Yes, but everything we have discovered is something that exists in nature. When speaking of this God, we are not speaking of something that supposedly exists in nature, for it is supernatural.

So making a comparison between what exists in nature and what does not exist in nature is fallacious.

Quote:Based on this evidence of our limitations I cannot logically discount for what we may yet find. The intellectually honest position is a 6 and not a 7.

No it is dishonest to be sub 7.0, because you cannot provide any evidence whatsoever to support being in that position.

It is, in every way, as dishonest as theism.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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22-01-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:44 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:27 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Change "1000 pink elephants in your anus" for Black swans and now you see the problem with your absolutism.

Even if we say "1000 black swans are in your anus" ... is that reasonable? Is it logical? Some credit needs to be given to what is truthful, what is honest, and what has a chance of being true.

Hence saying "You cannot prove that 1000 black swans are not in your anus" is no more intellectually honest than saying "You cannot prove God does not exist.

Nope. One is a testable claim, the other is (currently) not. Your comparison fails.

The statement "There does not exist a proof that there are no gods" is not equivalent to "There is a possibility of gods". You are making a logical error by equating them.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-01-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
I would actually find it more intellectually honest to think you don't accept anything as definitive; because, how do you know you actually know what you know?

I think if you're not skeptical to all you think you know and believe in all degrees then you are not intellectually honest... That would even bulge up against Tautologies or things such as my name which are commonly the defended things we can claim to know.

It's still a matter of perspective. You're not some arbiter nor am I of what is the accurate manner.

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22-01-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  "Evidence of the absence of evidence" is compelling, however looking back throughout human history, in particular the last 500 years, we as a species have continually discovered things that not only did we not suspect existed but were even possible.

Yes, but everything we have discovered is something that exists in nature. When speaking of this God, we are not speaking of something that supposedly exists in nature, for it is supernatural.

So making a comparison between what exists in nature and what does not exist in nature is fallacious.

Quote:Based on this evidence of our limitations I cannot logically discount for what we may yet find. The intellectually honest position is a 6 and not a 7.

No it is dishonest to be sub 7.0, because you cannot provide any evidence whatsoever to support being in that position.

It is, in every way, as dishonest as theism.

You don't find merit that the majority of all atheists on this board disagree with you? That you're idea of atheism is right and all others are wrong?

Sounds a little "religious" if you ask me.
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22-01-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:44 PM)Free Wrote:  Even if we say "1000 black swans are in your anus" ... is that reasonable? Is it logical? Some credit needs to be given to what is truthful, what is honest, and what has a chance of being true.

Hence saying "You cannot prove that 1000 black swans are not in your anus" is no more intellectually honest than saying "You cannot prove God does not exist.

Nope. One is a testable claim, the other is (currently) not. Your comparison fails.

Prove the other is testable, or has the possibility of being testable.

Now you are stuck with the burden of proof again, and will undoubtedly use fallacious logic again to defend it.

Quote:The statement "There does not exist a proof that there are no gods" is not equivalent to "There is a possibility of gods". You are making a logical error by equating them.

I never said that. Where are you getting this from?

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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22-01-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 09:41 AM)Free Wrote:  The burden of proof is upon you, not me. Since there is not a single shred of evidence anywhere to demonstrate even the possibility of any kind of supernatural entity existing, then it is in fact intellectually honest to claim as fact that there is no God.

It is intellectually dishonest to claim or insinuate that any kind of supernatural god is possible when there is not a single shred of evidence to support that assertion.

In my opinion, anybody below 7.0 is intellectually dishonest.
The position of "I don't know" makes no claims. They have no burden of proof because they have no claims to support.

You are making a claim "God does not exist" is a claim and "It is impossible for god to exist" is also a claim.
You have two claims for which you need to provide evidence in support of.

Pointing out that there is no evidence, does not work in your favour.
If you were honest you would retract your claims and replace them with "I don't know".

Are there any black swans?
"I don't know" is a valid answer
"There are no black swans" is a claim which needs evidence.
"There is no evidence in support of black swans" isn't evidence against black swans. It is an admission of ignorance. Ignorance = "I don't know"
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22-01-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:44 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:27 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Change "1000 pink elephants in your anus" for Black swans and now you see the problem with your absolutism.

Even if we say "1000 black swans are in your anus" ... is that reasonable? Is it logical? Some credit needs to be given to what is truthful, what is honest, and what has a chance of being true.

Hence saying "You cannot prove that 1000 black swans are not in your anus" is no more intellectually honest than saying "You cannot prove God does not exist.

Quote:I'm not asking for proof of anything but I'm not totally discounting the infinitesimal possibility. I'll go on living my life as though gods do not exist without saying that they absolutely do not.

All I am tasking anyone here to do is to get honest with themselves. When people can claim supernatural possibilities with no evidence to support such claims, it gives carte blanche for anyone to claim that anything can possibly exist just because we supposedly cannot prove that it doesn't.

That's fallacious logic, and a disgrace to humanity.

You know full well the suggestion I made to switch out the elephants for the swans was not followed with " in you anus" Laugh out loadDodgy

As for giving people a Carte Blanche to suggest anything is possible is unfortunately a by product of not possessing absolute knowledge.

We are left with placing the burden of proof on the claimants and dissecting the claims. You can't stop people from believing the absurd or the improbable.

I think there is a chasm between someone claiming there exists the supernatural and someone like me saying "I find that highly improbable, I see no evidence for it but I cannot say with 100% certainty it doesn't exist because I, a lowly carbon based organic life-form in a back water planet in a nondescript galaxy in a corner of the visible universe can claim to know this for certain. I know I'm not omniscient.

Your position of claiming absolute knowledge strikes me as very similar to the opposite end of the spectrum where a theist "knows" god exists, not tenable.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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