Why do atheists become atheists?
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22-01-2015, 01:57 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 09:07 AM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 12:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What is one called who says (not that we don't know, but)
... it is not possible for us to know ?

If someone says "it is not possible" it implies a couple of different things.

Firstly, it assumes that the knowledge exists in the first place, but it is somehow impossible for us to know. Since it indirectly implies that there is knowledge in existence, it is therefore a positive claim. Hence, the burden of proof is therefore upon that claimant to provide evidence that there is knowledge in existence that is impossible to know.

So good luck with that.

Secondly, if it is not possible to know, it therefore means that the knowledge itself is impossible. If something is impossible, it therefore cannot exist. The word "impossible" is universally defined as "not possible." Hence, whenever someone is saying that "it is not possible" they are really saying "it is impossible."

Therefore, if something is impossible, it cannot exist.

So, anyone who says "it is not possible to know" is deluding themselves in regards to reality, because the logistics of such a statement do not even exist due to the fact that entire statement itself contradicts itself.

After all, if something is impossible to know it immediately eliminates the possibility of any kind of knowledge to exist for the simple reason that the supposed knowledge is not possible.

It's a ridiculous and hilarious statement, really.

Big Grin

I think I disagree. My understanding of Agnosticism has always been :
"There may or may not be a deity. There is no way for us to comprehend if there is or isn't.". I don't think that presumes what you think it does.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-01-2015, 01:58 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
Ok.

Quote:Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true. This error in reasoning is often expressed with influential rhetoric.

A. The informal structure has two basic patterns:
  • Statement p is unproved.
    Not-p is true.
  • Statement not-p is unproved.
    p is true.

B. If one argues that God or telepathy, ghosts, or UFO's do not exist because their existence has not been proven beyond a shadow of doubt, then this fallacy occurs.

C. On the other hand, if one argues that God, telepathy, and so on do exist because their non-existence has not been proved, then one argues fallaciously as well.

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22-01-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 01:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 09:07 AM)Free Wrote:  If someone says "it is not possible" it implies a couple of different things.

Firstly, it assumes that the knowledge exists in the first place, but it is somehow impossible for us to know. Since it indirectly implies that there is knowledge in existence, it is therefore a positive claim. Hence, the burden of proof is therefore upon that claimant to provide evidence that there is knowledge in existence that is impossible to know.

So good luck with that.

Secondly, if it is not possible to know, it therefore means that the knowledge itself is impossible. If something is impossible, it therefore cannot exist. The word "impossible" is universally defined as "not possible." Hence, whenever someone is saying that "it is not possible" they are really saying "it is impossible."

Therefore, if something is impossible, it cannot exist.

So, anyone who says "it is not possible to know" is deluding themselves in regards to reality, because the logistics of such a statement do not even exist due to the fact that entire statement itself contradicts itself.

After all, if something is impossible to know it immediately eliminates the possibility of any kind of knowledge to exist for the simple reason that the supposed knowledge is not possible.

It's a ridiculous and hilarious statement, really.

Big Grin

I think I disagree. My understanding of Agnosticism has always been :
"There may or may not be a deity. There is no way for us to comprehend if there is or isn't.". I don't think that presumes what you think it does.

My feeling is that if something is impossible, it cannot exist. After all, it's impossible.

Tongue

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22-01-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 12:55 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  You don't find merit that the majority of all atheists on this board disagree with you?

Let’s leave the 1 against many argument out since that is an argumentum ad populum, we don’t let theists get away with it and we shouldn’t be using it.

(22-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  What atheists are you talking about? Those who claim to be, or all those who are pretending to be?

Bogus accusation, we all have argued ad neaseum the different quadrants of agnosticism and gnosticism.

(22-01-2015 12:55 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  That you're idea of atheism is right and all others are wrong?

(22-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, it is right; it is reasonable, logical, and intellectually honest.

No, no and no. Holding absolute positions of knowledge is exactly the opposite of those three attributes.

(22-01-2015 12:55 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Sounds a little "religious" if you ask me.

Yes, it does.

(22-01-2015 01:26 PM)Free Wrote:  No. "Religious" is anybody sub 7.0, because they cannot let go of even the smallest shred of hope, which they mistake for a "possibility."

Drinking Beverage

Back to the dawkins Scale:

[Image: dawkins-scale.png]

Notice this is a scale, it has ranges. Come on Free, pounding on the table with your shoe, while very Gorbachev-like and entertaining is beneath you.

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22-01-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 02:00 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 01:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think I disagree. My understanding of Agnosticism has always been :
"There may or may not be a deity. There is no way for us to comprehend if there is or isn't.". I don't think that presumes what you think it does.

My feeling is that if something is impossible, it cannot exist. After all, it's impossible.

Tongue

Now that's a better wording. If you feel a god is impossible, you're free (no pun intended) to believe so.

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22-01-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 01:52 PM)Free Wrote:  Proving Non Existence

So now we know.

Yes, we do:
Quote:Although it may be possible to prove non-existence in special situations, such as showing that a container does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence.

Do you not comprehend that statement?

Being a 7.0 requires a proof for non-existence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-01-2015, 02:09 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 01:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 01:34 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I can haz irony.

Claim to be? Pretend to be? Hope?

I don't claim to be atheist. I am.

I don't pretend to be atheist. Prove I'm not.

Hope. Hope for what? That's a can of whoop ass you want to leave in the pantry.

You don't disbelieve God...you apparently think you are God.

No, you are at best a defacto atheist. That's like living common law with someone instead of making a commitment.

You are not committed.

Me God? LOL

I am an atheist, fully committed.

I agree that you should be fully committed.

If you can't figure out what you sound like, well I don't believe there is any help for you.
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22-01-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
Thank you for pointing that out Full Circle. I didn't intend to use that fallacy. It was meant more to come off in terms of pointing out how theists (lets say Christianity) have general beliefs as a majority but then several sects disagree on the finer points.
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22-01-2015, 02:33 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 01:58 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Ok.

Quote:Argumentum ad Ignorantiam: (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true. This error in reasoning is often expressed with influential rhetoric.

A. The informal structure has two basic patterns:
  • Statement p is unproved.
    Not-p is true.
  • Statement not-p is unproved.
    p is true.

B. If one argues that God or telepathy, ghosts, or UFO's do not exist because their existence has not been proven beyond a shadow of doubt, then this fallacy occurs.

C. On the other hand, if one argues that God, telepathy, and so on do exist because their non-existence has not been proved, then one argues fallaciously as well.

Dear polyglot, you are right.

I think it is easy, to imagine something, which never could be proved or falsified.
For example: Last night I had a vision, telling me, that a supernatural DOG will come into connection with me and only me and will tell me the truth about everything during the next nights, and as a sign, when I wake up, I will hear a dog barking seven times. Everyone, who does not believe, will be destroyed by the DOG sooner or later, and the believers will be the masters of the world, sooner or later.
If I make some voodoo around this - what do you think, how many followers I will have?
And I swear, I really had this vision!

Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.
Thomas Paine
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22-01-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 02:00 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 01:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think I disagree. My understanding of Agnosticism has always been :
"There may or may not be a deity. There is no way for us to comprehend if there is or isn't.". I don't think that presumes what you think it does.

My feeling is that if something is impossible, it cannot exist. After all, it's impossible.

Tongue

Yabut I'm not saying *it* can or can't exist.
My statement concerns only MY ability to comprehend.

For example, there may or may not be 28 dimensions.
It there were, my 3-4 dimensional brain probably could not "comprehend" how they would "work" (as a whole).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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