Why do atheists become atheists?
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22-01-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:27 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 03:59 PM)Free Wrote:  7.0 represents many things, and knowledge is one of them. Yes, we can know that God does not exist due to the lack of evidence to support any sign of existence.

Could this knowledge be wrong? Is it falsifiable? Yes. But until proven wrong, and proven false, it is the current truth.

There is no God.

7 represents only one thing, an absolute knowledge claim.

We can say, “the lack of evidence to support any sign of existence” of God leads me to believe that “God does not exist”.

"Could this knowledge be wrong? Is it falsifiable? Yes. But until proven wrong, and proven false, it is the current truth.” - and there you go! If you hold the 7 position then there is absolutely no way you can say the aformentioned statement, you have just undermined the 7 you claim to be!

Checkmate atheist. Smile

No, I have put it out there as possibly being wrong because it is falsifiable. The only way it can be proven false, however, is to conclusively demonstrate the existence of God.

Good luck with that.

Big Grin

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22-01-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:29 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Because they're atheists?

Hey! Welcome back! Hope all is well back home?

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22-01-2015, 04:36 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:27 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:17 PM)Free Wrote:  And that shows a tiny degree of theism in respect this conversation. Yes, it may be minuscule, but it exists nonetheless. You are holding out on the idea that the knowledge proving the existence of God is a possibility, or the knowledge will show non existence.

This means you are agnostic.

And you want to know something? I find it more honest of you to be that way and open about it then those who would say they are atheists when in fact they are agnostics.

I am an atheist. I am what I am. I have no doubts that God does not exist because there is no reason to hold on to any possibility due to the fact that there is simply no evidence at all.

The "knowledge claim" is based upon what we know in regards to the non existence of God. The knowledge claim is based upon the evidence that there is an absence of evidence. This is legitimate knowledge. It is real knowledge. It is not fallacious.

I'm rightfully choosing not to admit to knowledge that may never be attained, and very likely won't be attained in my short life span.

You state it as if I'm holding out hope that somebody will prove God does exist, rather than he does not.

If someone were to prove with evidence that God did not exist, I'd be the first person to start bitch slapping theists on principle and celebration.

But you are right about me being agnostic...agnostic atheist. You do not hold a special claim to the term atheist, just like Christians don't get to decide for others who claim they are Christian. Though they do try...and we mock them for it.

My explanations are as simple and straightforward as you'll likely find. I'm not a dullard but there are plenty of posters here who are clearly smarter than myself. So if you can't grasp the concept through my pre-drug trial Charlie Gordon eyes, I don't think anybody here can get through to you.

You're right about one thing; in regards to what your position is in all this, your endeavors to convince me that it is the correct position will always be hopeless.

Your positions are based upon an unfalsifiable stance of, "You cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

That's one fallacy.

Even holding that position is shifting the burden of proof.

That's two logical fallacies.

And after all this fallacious positioning, you somehow think I should agree to your position?

I can't, because you see ... I am an atheist.

Big Grin

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22-01-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:36 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:27 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm rightfully choosing not to admit to knowledge that may never be attained, and very likely won't be attained in my short life span.

You state it as if I'm holding out hope that somebody will prove God does exist, rather than he does not.

If someone were to prove with evidence that God did not exist, I'd be the first person to start bitch slapping theists on principle and celebration.

But you are right about me being agnostic...agnostic atheist. You do not hold a special claim to the term atheist, just like Christians don't get to decide for others who claim they are Christian. Though they do try...and we mock them for it.

My explanations are as simple and straightforward as you'll likely find. I'm not a dullard but there are plenty of posters here who are clearly smarter than myself. So if you can't grasp the concept through my pre-drug trial Charlie Gordon eyes, I don't think anybody here can get through to you.

You're right about one thing; in regards to what your position is in all this, your endeavors to convince me that it is the correct position will always be hopeless.

Your positions are based upon an unfalsifiable stance of, "You cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

That's one fallacy.

Even holding that position is shifting the burden of proof.

That's two logical fallacies.

And after all this fallacious positioning, you somehow think I should agree to your position?

I can't, because you see ... I am an atheist.

Big Grin

I'm not shifting the burden of proof...you are.

I'm not trying to force you into admitting you're not an atheist...you're trying to do that to us.

You're also committing the logical fallacy of 'no true Scotsman'....but you ignored that part completely.
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22-01-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:36 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:27 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm rightfully choosing not to admit to knowledge that may never be attained, and very likely won't be attained in my short life span.

You state it as if I'm holding out hope that somebody will prove God does exist, rather than he does not.

If someone were to prove with evidence that God did not exist, I'd be the first person to start bitch slapping theists on principle and celebration.

But you are right about me being agnostic...agnostic atheist. You do not hold a special claim to the term atheist, just like Christians don't get to decide for others who claim they are Christian. Though they do try...and we mock them for it.

My explanations are as simple and straightforward as you'll likely find. I'm not a dullard but there are plenty of posters here who are clearly smarter than myself. So if you can't grasp the concept through my pre-drug trial Charlie Gordon eyes, I don't think anybody here can get through to you.

You're right about one thing; in regards to what your position is in all this, your endeavors to convince me that it is the correct position will always be hopeless.

Your positions are based upon an unfalsifiable stance of, "You cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

That's one fallacy.

Even holding that position is shifting the burden of proof.

That's two logical fallacies.

And after all this fallacious positioning, you somehow think I should agree to your position?

I can't, because you see ... I am an atheist.

Big Grin

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22-01-2015, 04:52 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 03:24 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:No, no and no. Holding absolute positions of knowledge is exactly the opposite of those three attributes.

You act as if holding absolute knowledge is somehow impossible. Do you think 1 + 1 would equal 3 anywhere else in the universe? Do you think if we started counting numbers 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... that somewhere else in the universe somebody would count the last possible number?

Yes, we can have absolute knowledge about many things, and since there is no evidence to support the existence of any supernatural entity whatsoever, the current state of our knowledge in regards to it is, in fact, absolute.

Since we know for a certainty that counting numbers would never result in the last number being counted, then we can also know that God does not exist due to the evidence of absence.

The non existence of God has not only been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Dear, arguing on this level - the logical level - is not the level you can talk or argue with deists, that's my experience. Many of them will argue on a personal level: they have or had a personal vision of something which could be called god - and they just believe that.
So your logic - please don't misunderstand me - because it is my logic, too - will not be accepted by many of the adult ´believers`.
If those people do that just as a personal act - so what. But when they congregate and start using not only words but indirect and direct force to convince the nonbelievers, than things begin to run into the false direction, and usually this starts with children. So, what we need is an education free of indoctrination, full of logic and facts about religions and I am sure, atheism and humanism - both should merge - will dominate on the long run. This kind of education converted me in younger years from a more or less religious person to an atheist.
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22-01-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:44 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:36 PM)Free Wrote:  You're right about one thing; in regards to what your position is in all this, your endeavors to convince me that it is the correct position will always be hopeless.

Your positions are based upon an unfalsifiable stance of, "You cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

That's one fallacy.

Even holding that position is shifting the burden of proof.

That's two logical fallacies.

And after all this fallacious positioning, you somehow think I should agree to your position?

I can't, because you see ... I am an atheist.

Big Grin

I'm not shifting the burden of proof...you are.

You need to understand that when you hold out from going to the 7.0 position because of the "You cannot prove God doesn't exist" position, it instantly implies that you hold on to some degree of belief that the existence of a supernatural god is possible.

Otherwise you would not be holding out because of that reason, okay?

Now, because you hold out for that reason, the burden of proof falls to you to prove the existence of a supernatural god is possible, because it is a positive claim you are making. When ever you say that something is possible, or imply it, it is a positive claim.

Hence, you have the burden of proof to support it. If you say I somehow have the burden of proof, then that is shifting the burden of proof, which is a logical fallacy according to the very definition.

So yes, you are shifting the burden of proof.


Quote:I'm not trying to force you into admitting you're not an atheist...you're trying to do that to us.

That's true. I don't deny it, because it is the truth. All in this discussion so far, except Pablo, Bucky, scotsman, and maybe one or two others, are agnostics.

Quote:You're also committing the logical fallacy of 'no true Scotsman'....but you ignored that part completely.

Not committing that fallacy at all. Since most of you are exhibiting agnosticism, then it's a statement of fact made by yourselves, not me.

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22-01-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:52 PM)bencandide Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 03:24 PM)Free Wrote:  You act as if holding absolute knowledge is somehow impossible. Do you think 1 + 1 would equal 3 anywhere else in the universe? Do you think if we started counting numbers 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... that somewhere else in the universe somebody would count the last possible number?

Yes, we can have absolute knowledge about many things, and since there is no evidence to support the existence of any supernatural entity whatsoever, the current state of our knowledge in regards to it is, in fact, absolute.

Since we know for a certainty that counting numbers would never result in the last number being counted, then we can also know that God does not exist due to the evidence of absence.

The non existence of God has not only been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Dear, arguing on this level - the logical level - is not the level you can talk or argue with deists, that's my experience.

You know, i am inclined to believe you. I guess I am just holding out some hope for them.

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22-01-2015, 05:09 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:55 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:44 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm not shifting the burden of proof...you are.

You need to understand that when you hold out from going to the 7.0 position because of the "You cannot prove God doesn't exist" position, it instantly implies that you hold on to some degree of belief that the existence of a supernatural god is possible.

Otherwise you would not be holding out because of that reason, okay?

Now, because you hold out for that reason, the burden of proof falls to you to prove the existence of a supernatural god is possible, because it is a positive claim you are making. When ever you say that something is possible, or imply it, it is a positive claim.

Hence, you have the burden of proof to support it. If you say I somehow have the burden of proof, then that is shifting the burden of proof, which is a logical fallacy according to the very definition.

So yes, you are shifting the burden of proof.


Quote:I'm not trying to force you into admitting you're not an atheist...you're trying to do that to us.

That's true. I don't deny it, because it is the truth. All in this discussion so far, except Pablo, Bucky, scotsman, and maybe one or two others, are agnostics.

Quote:You're also committing the logical fallacy of 'no true Scotsman'....but you ignored that part completely.

Not committing that fallacy at all. Since most of you are exhibiting agnosticism, then it's a statement of fact made by yourselves, not me.

There is no burden of proof on me when I'm saying I can't know at this moment. I'm also saying you can't know. So I'm not putting the burden of proof on you...you are.

And yes, you are absolutely committing the fallacy of 'no true scotsman'. My position meets the criteria for agnostic atheist.

But do have a good day my fellow atheist, for I am finished with this conversation. If I beat my head against this wall any longer I'm gonna look like Rocky Dennis.
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22-01-2015, 05:20 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 04:52 PM)bencandide Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 03:24 PM)Free Wrote:  You act as if holding absolute knowledge is somehow impossible. Do you think 1 + 1 would equal 3 anywhere else in the universe? Do you think if we started counting numbers 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... that somewhere else in the universe somebody would count the last possible number?

Yes, we can have absolute knowledge about many things, and since there is no evidence to support the existence of any supernatural entity whatsoever, the current state of our knowledge in regards to it is, in fact, absolute.

Since we know for a certainty that counting numbers would never result in the last number being counted, then we can also know that God does not exist due to the evidence of absence.

The non existence of God has not only been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Dear, arguing on this level - the logical level - is not the level you can talk or argue with deists, that's my experience. Many of them will argue on a personal level: they have or had a personal vision of something which could be called god - and they just believe that.
So your logic - please don't misunderstand me - because it is my logic, too - will not be accepted by many of the adult ´believers`.
If those people do that just as a personal act - so what. But when they congregate and start using not only words but indirect and direct force to convince the nonbelievers, than things begin to run into the false direction, and usually this starts with children. So, what we need is an education free of indoctrination, full of logic and facts about religions and I am sure, atheism and humanism - both should merge - will dominate on the long run. This kind of education converted me in younger years from a more or less religious person to an atheist.

What in the actual fuck are you talking about...dear?

If you knew about me, you would know, rather than assume, that I've never been indoctrinated. And I'm damn sure not trying to convince anybody here of a deity.

How you take "I don't know" and turn it into "believes in deities" is beyond comprehension.

Normally this is where I'd tell you to shove your head up your ass, but I think I'll save myself the trouble and just cram my own head up my ass.
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