Why do atheists become atheists?
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23-01-2015, 08:30 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2015 09:04 AM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 09:25 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 07:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Since my question was in respect to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god, and your response was that "it is a fact that there is something we do not know" regarding the existence or non existence of this supposed supernatural god, then here is another question:

Since you have made a positive claim that there is knowledge in existence that we are currently unaware of, then what evidence can you bring to the table to support this positive claim?

Answer to this and we will continue.
It seems we are jumping down a very strange and weird rabbit hole here.
You want me to prove that there is knowledge that I don't know. Really?!

No, this is not a strange rabbit hole. The questions are perfectly legitimate.

You are making a positive claim that there is a possibility that there could be some yet unknown knowledge in existence in relation to whether or not a supernatural god is possible.

What I am simply asking you to do is to supply any kind of evidence to support that claim, as well as the reasoning to support that evidence. Whenever anyone claims that something is possible, it must be demonstrated as actually being possible. Asserting the possibility does not, in any way, actually make it a possibility. Here is the definition of possible:

Quote:"Possible:"

able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something; "surely it's not possible for a man to live so long?"

noun: possible; plural noun: possibles

1. a person or thing that has the potential to become or do something, especially a potential candidate for a job or membership on a team.
"I have marked five possibles with an asterisk"

https://www.google.ca/search?q=possible&...2&ie=UTF-8

Therefore you must demonstrate that even the possibility is actually able/capable of existing in reality.

I understand why you would find this question problematic, because you will without doubt have problems justifying your position when you will have no evidence to support the positive claim.

And then you will understand exactly what my problem is with a sub 7.0 position. I am concentrating just on you to zero in on exactly why I have the problem. I simply just need to be understood.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 08:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Why do atheists become atheists?

They don't really.

They simply reset to an earlier state.

After all ----

ALL children are born atheists. It's highly unlikely for a child to come to accept any religion that isn't in close proximity to the place they are raised.

Religion, like most forms of child abuse is a learned behavior.

Agreed, and my article on the history of atheism demonstrates as such.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 09:28 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2015 01:35 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 10:40 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 04:30 PM)Free Wrote:  No, I have put it out there as possibly being wrong because it is falsifiable. The only way it can be proven false, however, is to conclusively demonstrate the existence of God.

Good luck with that.

Big Grin

You are a self proclaimed 7. To say this implies that you are 100% sure there are no gods therefore to you this cannot be falsifiable. The minute you allow for any possibility of falsification as you have stated above regarding your knowledge claim you lose your 7 rating.

Your stance should be "there is no possibility of supernatural beings and you cannot prove otherwise".

I am 100% sure. Can I be proven wrong! Sure!

Now show me God, and I will be wrong. Girl_nails

My point is, yes I am 100% certain that there are no supernatural gods, but my position is falsifiable if anyone can show that a supernatural god exists.

Then I will be wrong, right?

I can be 100% certain for the simple reason that I know no one will be able to show me any evidence of a supernatural god. But those who believe that god exists, or believe that there is a possibility that god exists, will look at my position as being falsifiable, and I therefore give them the chance to prove it.

But ... we both know they cannot do that.

Big Grin

Hint: It's a taunt. Wink

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 09:34 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2015 01:33 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(22-01-2015 10:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 06:57 PM)Free Wrote:  Here's my problem with this.

From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god, and that is the reason why you are at a sub 7.0 level.

Nope, that is not what I am saying. I am saying there is no proof that there aren't any gods and claiming 7.0 requires that proof.

The rest is just shit you are making up.

Quote:Answer to this, and I then will expand further following your answer.

There is nothing to expand.

Consider the +/- slider illustrated below, and consider the agnostic position to be at 0. We will use this as a starting point.

The evidence/proof of the absence of any kind of positive evidence needed to demonstrate the existence or possible existence of any supernatural god moves the +/- slider to -1 from 0:

(-3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3)

Therefore, the current position is that- if still at 0 there might be a possibility (if it was qualified with evidence), and if at +1 it would demonstrate positive evidence indicating a great probability- but with negative evidence it brings both the existence and possibility of existence of a supernatural god to a negative position.

-1

Evidence of Absence

Quote:Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist.

And that is negative evidence, and that evidence is proof, and this proof meets the Burden of Proof.

It is this evidence that provides me with the "knowledge" that a supernatural god does not exist, nor possibly exists.

So I have provided proof to support my 7.0 status. Where is yours to dispute it? You have none. You need some kind of positive evidence to move that slider back to 0 to demonstrate even a possibility, so let's see it.

Therefore, the existence or possible existence of a supernatural god is less than 0, and is negative. If you think this is incorrect, then prove it.

That's all the proof I need. You need more? Can't help ya.


Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 09:23 AM)Free Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 08:23 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Why do atheists become atheists?

They don't really.

They simply reset to an earlier state.

After all ----

ALL children are born atheists. It's highly unlikely for a child to come to accept any religion that isn't in close proximity to the place they are raised.

Religion, like most forms of child abuse is a learned behavior.

Agreed, and my article on the history of atheism demonstrates as such.
Good article. Thanks for linking...

.......................................

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23-01-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 08:30 AM)Free Wrote:  You are making a positive claim that there is a possibility that there could be some yet unknown knowledge in existence in relation to whether or not a supernatural god is possible.
Nope. I have never said that it is possible that there is unknown knowledge in existence regarding gods.

You are really struggling here.

You are building up strawmen upon strawmen, you really need to focus on what is being said rather than infering more strawmen in a desperate attempt to substantiate your already ridiculous strawman.

I said "It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

And I gave you examples
"I don't know how old the god is.
I don't how tall the god is.
I don't know what the god is made of."

At no point did I state that this unknown data actually exists and merely needs to be discovered.

I am an atheist. I lack a belief in gods. I am agnostic. I don't know if gods exist or not. I don't know if it is possible or not for gods to exist. I'm an ignostic. I don't consider that a usable definition of god has been formulated.

So logically going forward from this. If you were to ask me if I thought there was knowledge currently in existence pertaining to gods, my answer would be "I don't know".

I don't know means that I don't know. I know you are struggling with this simple concept.

It is true that I don't know what god is made of. This is something that I don't know hence it is fact. I also don't know how tall the god is. This is yet again something that I don't know, another face. This means that it is a fact that there is something I don't know about gods.

What it doesn't mean, is that these somethings actually exist or even if their existence is possible or not. I don't know if they exist or not. I don't know if god is made of anything, or if god is simply imaginary. I don't know if god has a measurable size or if god is simply imaginary.

I have never made a claim that there are attributes of god that are in existence.

Get with the programme buddy.
I don't know means I don't know.
It isn't a positive claim of anything.
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23-01-2015, 02:27 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2015 02:54 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 02:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 08:30 AM)Free Wrote:  You are making a positive claim that there is a possibility that there could be some yet unknown knowledge in existence in relation to whether or not a supernatural god is possible.
Nope. I have never said that it is possible that there is unknown knowledge in existence regarding gods.

You are really struggling here.

Really? I'm struggling? Let me quote you again:

(22-01-2015 07:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 06:57 PM)Free Wrote:  From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god
It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know. Actually we know very little with regards to the consideration of the possibility of the existence of gods.

I was very specific in my inquiry. I said:

"From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god."

You responded to that specifically with:

"It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid725036

So knock off your fucking bullshit. It's pretty damn bad that you get caught lying about what you said, isn't it? Your intellectual dishonesty is making a total fool of yourself.

Now please ... entertain me some more as I watch you try to wiggle out of this.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 03:06 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 02:27 PM)Free Wrote:  I was very specific in my inquiry. I said:

"From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god."

You responded to that specifically with:

"It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid725036

So knock off your fucking bullshit. It's pretty damn bad that you get caught lying about what you said, isn't it? Your intellectual dishonesty is making a total fool of yourself.

Now please ... entertain me some more as I watch you try to wiggle out of this.

Drinking Beverage

You are being a dick here. You have built a strawman and you are insisting I defend your strawman. I have clarified twice now that I don't hold to your strawman, and yet you keep insisting that I defend it.

To clarify yet again.

I don't hold any belief that there is any knowledge in existence pertaining to gods.
It is unknown whether such knowledge is "in existence"
It is unknown whether it is possible or not whether this knowledge is "in existence"

What is known (and is fact) is that I personally don't have this alleged knowledge.

Is that clear enough for you?

My position is "I don't know".

Really dude, really Facepalm
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23-01-2015, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2015 04:03 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 03:06 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 02:27 PM)Free Wrote:  I was very specific in my inquiry. I said:

"From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god."

You responded to that specifically with:

"It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid725036

So knock off your fucking bullshit. It's pretty damn bad that you get caught lying about what you said, isn't it? Your intellectual dishonesty is making a total fool of yourself.

Now please ... entertain me some more as I watch you try to wiggle out of this.

Drinking Beverage

You are being a dick here. You have built a strawman and you are insisting I defend your strawman. I have clarified twice now that I don't hold to your strawman, and yet you keep insisting that I defend it.

What strawman? Care to point that out? Show me where exactly, so I don't need to call you a liar again.

here's the definition of a strawman:

"A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument.[1] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument."

The original argument is posted below, demonstrating that the audience here can actually see it.

Quote:I don't hold any belief that there is any knowledge in existence pertaining to gods.
It is unknown whether such knowledge is "in existence"
It is unknown whether it is possible or not whether this knowledge is "in existence"

What is known (and is fact) is that I personally don't have this alleged knowledge.

Is that clear enough for you?

My position is "I don't know".

Really dude, really Facepalm

Contradict yourself much? Do I need to quote you again? Here, let me quote you again:

(22-01-2015 07:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 06:57 PM)Free Wrote:  From what I can ascertain you and others here are saying that it is possible that there is something you do not know in regards to the existence or non existence of a supernatural god.
It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know. Actually we know very little with regards to the consideration of the possibility of the existence of gods.

This is not strawman. These are your very own words.

The quote above conclusively demonstrates that you believe there is some knowledge in existence that you are currently unaware of, otherwise you would not be saying "It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

Now produce some kind of evidence to support the existence of this "something"- this supposed knowledge- that you insist is factual, according to your very own words.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-01-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(23-01-2015 03:43 PM)Free Wrote:  
(22-01-2015 07:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know. Actually we know very little with regards to the consideration of the possibility of the existence of gods.

The quote above conclusively demonstrates that you believe there is some knowledge in existence that you are currently unaware of, otherwise you would not be saying "It's not just possible that there is something we don't know. It is a fact that there is something we don't know."

Now produce some kind of evidence to support the existence of this "something"- this supposed knowledge- that you insist is factual, according to your very own words.

Drinking Beverage
You're being a dick again.
I've never said there was knowledge in existence.
I said that there was something that I don't know.

It is a fact that I don't know what god is made of.

The reason why I don't know could be either:
I haven't found it
or
It doesn't exist.



Try and learn logic. It will benefit you much.
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