Why do atheists become atheists?
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13-01-2015, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2015 05:31 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 04:26 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 02:24 PM)Free Wrote:  If that's the case, then anything anybody could possibly think of actually exists, all because you "don't know."

Right?

I don't get all the high octane responsive 1's so I'll respond simply to this last part...

No it doesn't mean everything ACTUALLY exists. It's the position Everything COULD exist. I wouldn't absolutely rule out the flying teapot between Earth and Mars revolving the sun.

The position that everything "could exist" needs to have some kind of supporting evidence, right?

My feeling is that nothing exists until it has been observed in some way. If we don't draw the line on what determines existence, then anything we could possibly imagine would therefore have enough degree of credibility to it to warrant existence.

Now think for a moment ...

Using this type of reasoning, nothing can ever be determined to not exist. For example, if you, 10 other people, and I walked into an empty room, and then I pointed to the middle of the room and said, "Go sit in that chair," and you- nor anyone else- did not see a chair because the room was empty, and you actually checked it out, then is there a chair in the room or not?

If you say that there is still a possibility that a chair is in the middle of the room when you cannot detect it any way, then is that being truthful?

Quote:To the absolute sense we don't know anything for certain. I would grant we know tautologies and that lot of type of things for certain.. like our names. But beyond that I don't accept we can definitely for sure claim for sure knowledge about anything.

This philosophy seems silly to me. Do we not know that 1 + 1 = 2? Do we not know we exist? Are we not speaking right now?

We can know things, and we can determine things as either existing or not existing.

The things we imagine do not determine reality.

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13-01-2015, 07:33 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 03:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 03:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Yeah, that's my point. If we, as atheists, are going to say we are "agnostic" atheists, then we must also say we are agnostic about Zeus, Thor, Venus, etc.

No, we don't. We could disprove the existence of every god so far described but that does not logically rule out any possible god.

In order for something to be possible, it must first have evidence to support the possibility. That evidence would need to demonstrate a capability. But first, before we can even look for capability, we must first have the object in existence.

Therefore, for you to make a claim that you believe it is possible that a god exists, you find yourself in exactly the same burden of proof scenario as a theist who also believes.

Hence, the burden of proof falls to you to demonstrate your belief that it is possible.

Quote:
Quote:That is simply unreasonable to me.

It is the epitome of reason.

Far from it. It is completely unreasonable.

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13-01-2015, 07:41 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 07:33 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 03:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, we don't. We could disprove the existence of every god so far described but that does not logically rule out any possible god.

In order for something to be possible, it must first have evidence to support the possibility. That evidence would need to demonstrate a capability. But first, before we can even look for capability, we must first have the object in existence.

Therefore, for you to make a claim that you believe it is possible that a god exists, you find yourself in exactly the same burden of proof scenario as a theist who also believes.

Hence, the burden of proof falls to you to demonstrate your belief that it is possible.

Neither you nor I can prove it impossible. Unlikely? Yes. Do I believe it possible? Not really.

Quote:
Quote:It is the epitome of reason.

Far from it. It is completely unreasonable.

It is reasonable because it is the valid logical conclusion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2015, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2015 08:01 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 07:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 07:33 PM)Free Wrote:  In order for something to be possible, it must first have evidence to support the possibility. That evidence would need to demonstrate a capability. But first, before we can even look for capability, we must first have the object in existence.

Therefore, for you to make a claim that you believe it is possible that a god exists, you find yourself in exactly the same burden of proof scenario as a theist who also believes.

Hence, the burden of proof falls to you to demonstrate your belief that it is possible.

I can't prove it impossible. Unlikely? Yes. Do I believe it possible? Not really.

You are not required to prove it is impossible. In fact, you don't even have to prove that it is unlikely. The burden of proof is with the positive claimant always, and the positive claimant is the one making the claim of existence.

When you say "it is possible," that is also a positive claim. You are then required to provide evidence to support the existence of god, just like a theist. Why? Because you are claiming that a god is possible.

Theist: God exists.
You: It is possible that God exists.

Both are positive claims because both make the claim of something in existence; the theist says God exists, and you make a positive claim that a possibility exists.

Hence, you are both required to prove your positive claims. If you cannot demonstrate your claims to be true, then your claims are false.

And if your claims are false, then God does not exist.

Quote:
Quote:Far from it. It is completely unreasonable.

It is reasonable because it is the valid logical conclusion.

No, the valid logical conclusion is exactly what I posted above.

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13-01-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 07:50 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 07:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  I can't prove it impossible. Unlikely? Yes. Do I believe it possible? Not really.

You are not required to prove it is impossible. In fact, you don't even have to prove that it is unlikely. The burden of proof is with the positive claimant always, and the positive claimant is the one making the claim of existence.

When you say "it is possible," that is also a positive claim. You are then required to provide evidence to support the existence of god, just like a theist. Why? Because you are claiming that a god is possible.

Theist: God exists.
You: It is possible that God exists.

Both are positive claims because both make the claim of something in existence; the theist says God exists, and you make a positive claim that a possibility exists.

Hence, you are both required to prove your positive claims. If you cannot demonstrate your claims to be true, then your claims are false.

And if your claims are false, then God does not exist.

Quote:It is reasonable because it is the valid logical conclusion.

No, the valid logical conclusion is exactly what I posted above.

You're playing some word game there. I said:
"No, we don't. We could disprove the existence of every god so far described but that does not logically rule out any possible god."

I made no positive claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2015, 08:21 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 08:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 07:50 PM)Free Wrote:  You are not required to prove it is impossible. In fact, you don't even have to prove that it is unlikely. The burden of proof is with the positive claimant always, and the positive claimant is the one making the claim of existence.

When you say "it is possible," that is also a positive claim. You are then required to provide evidence to support the existence of god, just like a theist. Why? Because you are claiming that a god is possible.

Theist: God exists.
You: It is possible that God exists.

Both are positive claims because both make the claim of something in existence; the theist says God exists, and you make a positive claim that a possibility exists.

Hence, you are both required to prove your positive claims. If you cannot demonstrate your claims to be true, then your claims are false.

And if your claims are false, then God does not exist.


No, the valid logical conclusion is exactly what I posted above.

You're playing some word game there. I said:
"No, we don't. We could disprove the existence of every god so far described but that does not logically rule out any possible god."



I made no positive claim.

This is just semantics, because if it doesn't rule out the possibility, then obviously the possibility exists.

So hence, point blank:

Is it possible that God exists?

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13-01-2015, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2015 08:26 PM by The Polyglot Atheist.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  The position that everything "could exist" needs to have some kind of supporting evidence, right?

I don't think so, but let's see what you mean...

(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  My feeling is that nothing exists until it has been observed in some way. If we don't draw the line on what determines existence, then anything we could possibly imagine would therefore have enough degree of credibility to it to warrant existence.

No. You can rule out things that seem unlikely or apparently impossible, but you cannot definitely rule out everything because you don't know everything. Something might sound impossible to you or others based on common sense, but things like astronomy will teach you that you cannot always trust just your common sense. There are theories that sound like nonsense but are mathematically proven.

(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  Now think for a moment ...

Using this type of reasoning, nothing can ever be determined to not exist. For example, if you, 10 other people, and I walked into an empty room, and then I pointed to the middle of the room and said, "Go sit in that chair," and you- nor anyone else- did not see a chair because the room was empty, and you actually checked it out, then is there a chair in the room or not?

If you say that there is still a possibility that a chair is in the middle of the room when you cannot detect it any way, then is that being truthful?

As far as we know there is not one.

(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  This philosophy seems silly to me. Do we not know that 1 + 1 = 2? Do we not know we exist? Are we not speaking right now?

We can know things, and we can determine things as either existing or not existing.

The things we imagine do not determine reality.

1+1=2 while being obvious to you is not obvious. There is a mathematical demonstration to prove that simple addition. Also this: blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/07/why-did-112-take-russell-and-whitehead.html?m=1

I know I exist, but, philosophically speaking, I don't know if everything else is true: I don't know you exist, my house, my parents, my life, it could be all false. I could be a brain in a jar, a crazy dude in a mental hospital, but this is philosophical stuff. I, as everyone else, take for granted that the life I experience is real because acting that way, it works. I don't believe those things by the way, but it is to show that we assume things sometimes even without realizing it.

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13-01-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 04:38 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 03:41 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I don’t agree with you on this. I can do away every god ever dreamt up by mankind and still leave an infitesimal window open for the possibility that a creator being of undetermined qualities exists.

OK, after I read that I’m now a 6.999999999999999 Drinking Beverage

Is there any evidence to support this creator being? Is there any more evidence to support any of the other hundreds of creator beings that have come and gone throughout history?

Not that I’m aware of.

Quote:Also, what I am speaking about in regards to gods is directly related to all the gods that have been known to us throughout history.

Here's a tricky statement:

Just because we think that some creator God is possible does not mean it is actually possible.

Let me explain ...

Is it possible that 1,592,457,905,610 Billion masturbating french fried potatoes are - right at this minute - walking down Wall Street in New York with their dicks in their hands?

Big Grin

Of course not...there’s a good chance that half of them are female.

As for “Just because we think that some creator God is possible does not mean it is actually possible” you must know something I don’t.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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13-01-2015, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2015 08:42 PM by Chas.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 08:21 PM)Free Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 08:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  You're playing some word game there. I said:
"No, we don't. We could disprove the existence of every god so far described but that does not logically rule out any possible god."



I made no positive claim.

This is just semantics, because if it doesn't rule out the possibility, then obviously the possibility exists.

So hence, point blank:

Is it possible that God exists?

Which God? Are you asking about some particular God? Because I'm not.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-01-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(13-01-2015 08:22 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  The position that everything "could exist" needs to have some kind of supporting evidence, right?

I don't think so, but let's see what you mean...

(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  My feeling is that nothing exists until it has been observed in some way. If we don't draw the line on what determines existence, then anything we could possibly imagine would therefore have enough degree of credibility to it to warrant existence.

No. You can rule out things that seem unlikely or apparently impossible, but you cannot definitely rule out everything because you don't know everything.

This is a classical Argument from Ignorance.

We cannot argue based upon what we do not know, but only upon what is known. Just because we do not know everything does not necessarily mean that what we do know is somehow invalidated.

We must proceed with the knowledge we have in hand, and not with another unsupported positive claim in which we cannot proceed because we do not have knowledge of something.

Quote:Something might sound impossible to you or others based on common sense, but things like astronomy will teach you that you cannot always trust just your common sense. There are theories that sound like nonsense but are mathematically proven.

False analogy, apples and oranges here. Astronomy is observable; evidence of God is not.

(13-01-2015 04:53 PM)Free Wrote:  This philosophy seems silly to me. Do we not know that 1 + 1 = 2? Do we not know we exist? Are we not speaking right now?

We can know things, and we can determine things as either existing or not existing.

The things we imagine do not determine reality.

Quote:1+1=2 while being obvious to you is not obvious. There is a mathematical demonstration to prove that simple addition. Also this: blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/07/why-did-112-take-russell-and-whitehead.html?m=1

But it is obvious, and 300 pages to prove it only means they had some of the best pot in the world.

Big Grin

Quote:I know I exist, but, philosophically speaking, I don't know if everything else is true: I don't know you exist, my house, my parents, my life, it could be all false. I could be a brain in a jar, a crazy dude in a mental hospital, but this is philosophical stuff. I, as everyone else, take for granted that the life I experience is real because acting that way, it works. I don't believe those things by the way, but it is to show that we assume things sometimes even without realizing it.

Using your philosophy, can we make a claim that anything exists? This works for me, because if we cannot determine that anything exists, then obviously we cannot claim that a possibility exists, which means we cannot claim the existence of God is possible.

This could quickly turn into one big fat fucking vicious circle of utter stupidity.

Sadcryface

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