Why do atheists become atheists?
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26-01-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:22 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:00 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ( edit fail)
It is not our job as atheists to debunk every imagined God, rather, the gods presented to us.

I agree.

As for my edit fail Weeping

Wasn't yours, was mine; stupid iPad sucks the whole hog in re quotations. Big Grin

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26-01-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
I was trying to find a way to say this respectfully. I couldn't, so fuck it.

First of all, fuck the Dawkins scale. I had enough theists pigeonhole me when I was a theist, and now they still tell me what I am and what I "believe" as an atheist. I don't need Dawkins telling me where I fit on his scale.

I am hesitant to assign myself a number on that scale. That is mostly because I don't like the idea of yet another group putting me in a little box. Had that as a kid, as a theist, and as an adult. As a kid I was put in special classes (logic classes for a 12-year-old), and as an adult I'm put into various categories because I have no god (perish the thought). Little tired

Now, saying that, I understand his need (and others) to have such a scale. For instance, I could not be in the same room to long with a 1 for very long.


(26-01-2015 01:12 PM)Free Wrote:  The evidence of absence demonstrates that there is no positive evidence suggesting the existence or possible existence of any supernatural god.

It demonstrates that the existence or possible existence of any supernatural god equates to a negative i.e.; nothing.
Not singling you out, Free, so don't take it personally. Just want to pick your brain. Here's what I think: There is no evidence for existence of any gods presented thus far by anyone in history. I do not, in good conscience, think humanity will ever prove the existence of any deity.

Not for anyone in particular...
I could sit here and tap out an entire essay as to why I think that. Some is logical, some is not. However I feel that proving one's god(s) is a fruitless and wasteful expenditure of time and energy.

I don't know where I fit on the Dawkins scale. I'm curious, but another part of me doesn't care much. We as atheists have enough trouble with theists telling us we're not really atheists. (Yes, I get that way too often.) Do we really need to quantify and qualify ourselves to each other?
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26-01-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:30 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Do we really need to quantify and qualify ourselves to each other?

Yes. Pattern recognition is part of the human condition. If I didn't accept that need, why would you be "clockwork?"

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26-01-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:23 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  OK, I’ve read that article before and inductive reasoning is what I believe goes to the heart of my point of view.

"So why is it that people insist that you can’t prove a negative? I think it is the result of two things. (1) an acknowledgement that induction is not bulletproof, airtight, and infallible...”

“If we’re going to dismiss inductive arguments because they produce conclusions that are probable but not definite, then we are in deep doo-doo. "

And that’s it...these two statements may say it better than I have been, our inductive reasoning is “not infallible” and “not definite”. Knowing this point is my Waterloo to a 7.
I'd hafta wonder why you're surrendering to theistic bullshit?

lol ... I agree. Almost everything he says screams, "Fuck it! I'm 7.0!"

I think he will get here with us. It's only time. He's one of the smarter ones here.

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26-01-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:That isn’t my position. Supernatural phenomena might be beyond our (current) abilities to prove.

You must demonstrate this as being a possibility with evidence. As I have said before, things are not possible just because we say they are. For something to be possible, there needs to be evidence to support that possibility.

P1 “Man will someday fly to the moon.” circa 1492
P2 “Show me evidence to support your assertion.”
P1 “I don’t have any.”
P2 “Checkmate Moonist”

(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)‘Free Wrote:  Too many people buy into the saying, "Anything is possible." This can easly be discredited with asking a couple of questions:

Is it possible that 1 + 1 will ever be any number greater or less than 2? Demonstrate this if you think it is true.

Is it possible when counting numbers 1 ... 2 ... 3... that anyone will ever count the last available number? Demonstrate this if you think it is true.

Hence, not everything is possible.

I agree. As for your example there are man-made constructs such as mathematics that we set the rules ergo we know their parameters and limitations.

Quote:It does, but only in the present.

(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)‘Free’ Wrote:  This insinuates that in the future it would be possible. Again, please demonstrate evidence to support that possibility.

See my Moonist example above.

Quote:I would rephrase as “God does not seem to exist.”

(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)‘Free’ Wrote:  That would be intellectually dishonest. When something demonstrates non existence, and nothing demonstrates existence, and nothing contests non existence in any way, then the only truth that remains is that God does not exist.
Quote:

Perhaps my issue with this stems from a closing of the book on future knowledge as I have said before. So far I find no intellectual dishonesty on my part by describing myself less than a 7.
From where I sit your position is one of “It will never be proven that supernatural phenomena (I prefer this term rather than ‘god’ because it is more encompassing) exists.” That is my main issue, our known human limitations.

Firstly, you must prove that the book of future knowledge even has a possibility of existing.

Smile

I need not prove such a thing. I only need to to cite inductive reasoning to say that in the future we will know things that we do not know today. What those things are is immaterial.

Big Grin

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-01-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:30 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Do we really need to quantify and qualify ourselves to each other?

No, not really. It all started like 50 pages ago when I said that I was 7.0, and was accused of being intellectually dishonest. Chas starts saying that we cant prove a negative, we can't prove that God doesn't exist etc. Vosur, who never engaged in the convo at all, neg reps me for -3 based upon what Chas said and says I am intellectually dishonest in the rep.

Yet not one of them has provided a single stitch of any kind of intellectual dishonesty. I don't appreciate when people paint me as being dishonest when there is no evidence of it, so I defended myself as best I could and was forced to show why my position is, in fact, honest.

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26-01-2015, 03:48 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:24 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:22 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I agree.

As for my edit fail Weeping

Wasn't yours, was mine; stupid iPad sucks the whole hog in re quotations. Big Grin

Preach it to me brother. Don’t forget predictive text...blows.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-01-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:47 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)Free Wrote:  You must demonstrate this as being a possibility with evidence. As I have said before, things are not possible just because we say they are. For something to be possible, there needs to be evidence to support that possibility.

P1 “Man will someday fly to the moon.” circa 1492
P2 “Show me evidence to support your assertion.”
P1 “I don’t have any.”
P2 “Checkmate Moonist”

Apples and Oranges ...

Quote:
Quote:It does, but only in the present.

(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)‘Free’ Wrote:  This insinuates that in the future it would be possible. Again, please demonstrate evidence to support that possibility.

See my Moonist example above.

See Apples and Oranges above.

Quote:
Quote:I would rephrase as “God does not seem to exist.”

(26-01-2015 03:06 PM)‘Free’ Wrote:  That would be intellectually dishonest. When something demonstrates non existence, and nothing demonstrates existence, and nothing contests non existence in any way, then the only truth that remains is that God does not exist.

Firstly, you must prove that the book of future knowledge even has a possibility of existing.

Smile

I need not prove such a thing. I only need to to cite inductive reasoning to say that in the future we will know things that we do not know today. What those things are is immaterial.

Big Grin

That's not the same. Just because we can know natural things in the future by no means indicates we can know supernatural things in the future.

Since the natural exists now, possibilities abound. But since nothing supernatural has ever been determined to exist, there's no precedent to support a future possibility.

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26-01-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:23 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  OK, I’ve read that article before and inductive reasoning is what I believe goes to the heart of my point of view.

"So why is it that people insist that you can’t prove a negative? I think it is the result of two things. (1) an acknowledgement that induction is not bulletproof, airtight, and infallible...”

“If we’re going to dismiss inductive arguments because they produce conclusions that are probable but not definite, then we are in deep doo-doo. "

And that’s it...these two statements may say it better than I have been, our inductive reasoning is “not infallible” and “not definite”. Knowing this point is my Waterloo to a 7.
I'd hafta wonder why you're surrendering to theistic bullshit?

I'm curious what makes that theistic bullshit? My first go to response to thinking of something as theistic bullshit is the concept of definitive special knowledge. I think that's the bits of extreme position taking that doesn't reflect very well to our human position.

It's interesting to me though this convo happened to get all bogged into the Dawkins Scale as if it's any more relevant of that different than the agnostic/gnostic atheism chart. Really the only difference is Dawkins puts the generic supposed middleground agnosticism on the chart. Everything else is the same.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-01-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 03:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 03:23 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'd hafta wonder why you're surrendering to theistic bullshit?

I'm curious what makes that theistic bullshit?

OK Full Circle's sock puppet. Big Grin

Because it assumes we must limit our imagination to theirs. Like the LC, there is no precedent for theology based upon the LC; why the fuck should I debunk my own "presupposed" nonsense. Tongue

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