Why do atheists become atheists?
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26-01-2015, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2015 07:59 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, and just like the non existence of any supernatural god, you have the non existence of any teenagers. Both are evidence of absence.

In the scenario above, a claim was made that teenagers were racing their cars outside the house. This claims says that teenagers were existing outside the house, racing cars. But upon investigation, it became knowledge that the teenagers were not outside the house racing cars.

In regards to God, a claim is also made for existence. But upon investigation, it became knowledge that God does not exist.

False analogy. Best you can say is God does not appear to be responsible. He has an alibi 'cause he was having an orgy with the teenagers. And apparently what you call epistemology I call speculation.

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26-01-2015, 08:00 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 06:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  In a positive way, such as an observable way. That which exists can be observed. That is positive evidence.
You need to be specific. Where do we need to look in order to confirm or reject the god claim?

Well that's just it, you need to find him first. The claim that God exists when there is no evidence is bad enough but when nobody seems to know where this god exists it makes it even worse.

I suggest you find Jesus first. Once you find the kid, he'll take you to the Old Man and the Spook.

For the record, I only had to look at the Evidence of Absence.

Big Grin

Quote:
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  In a negative way, such as no observation or detection of anything. That which does not exist cannot be observed. That is negative evidence.

No, this is lack of evidence which relies on your own ignorance.

No, it is negative evidence. Negative evidence is the result of the Evidence of Absence.

You are totally confused.

Quote:If you answer the first question in a specific fashion, then it will tell you where to look for the specific evidence. If the evidence isn't there, where it is expected to be, then this is strong evidence for the converse (being that god doesn't exist).

Take a look online at all examples of negative evidence, all examples of "evidence of absence" notice that they are specific. They do not also fit into the "absence of evidence" category.

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence.

1. Absence of evidence only means that there is no evidence.

2. But Evidence of Absence is evidence of a complete and total lack of any positive evidence..

# 1 is not evidence.

# 2 is evidence.


Quote:
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, and just like the non existence of any supernatural god, you have the non existence of any teenagers. Both are evidence of absence.
But we have been told where to look for them. We have a specific and falsifiable claim. We can falsify the claim by looking at the specific street and seeing that the teenagers aren't there.

Look anywhere you want. I mean, if you don't even know where this supernatural god is, and nobody can tell you, then what does that tell you about its existence?

And that's why the Evidence of Absence is considered evidence.

Quote:The teenage example is specific and falsifiable and the evidence (empty street) is contradictory to the claim (teenagers on the street). The evidence falsifies the claim because we can't possibly have an empty street as well as the street being occupied by teenagers.

Your god claim is very different. It gives no specifics on where you looked and how your evidence falsified the "existence of god" claim.
Your claim is an "absence of evidence" claim. It is not an "evidence of absence" claim.

Who says we have't looked? There have been claims that god exists within each of us, but I looked inside and nope ... no god there. It is said he sits in heaven, but hey, no sign of heaven anywhere either.

Gosh ya know. Do you suppose if we turned over every rock in the universe this god might show up?

The claim is Evidence of Absence because it is evidence of the absence of positive evidence regarding the existence of any supernatural god. This absence of positive evidence is the result of the failure of those who make the positive claim of the existence of God.

They failed. Not me, and not any atheist.


Quote:
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  In regards to God, a claim is also made for existence. But upon investigation, it became knowledge that God does not exist.
Where specifically did you look?

I specifically looked directly at the Evidence of Absence.

Quote:How does this prove all god claims to be false?

Because the Evidence of Absence demonstrates it.

Quote:
(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  None, since they do not exist.
How do you know they do not exist? Where is your proof?

Evidence of Absence.

(26-01-2015 06:00 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:I have not taken it any further than the very basics of demonstrating Evidence of Absence. After all, one cannot take it any further because there's nothing else.
In your desperation to prove yourself right, you are stretching definitions, and ignoring basic logic. You are appealing to ignorance because you have no evidence. You do not have any evidence of absence because you don't know where to look. You assert that gods don't exist. You use that as an excuse to claim that you don't need evidence to prove that gods don't exist. You're logic is circular, you invoke ignorance, you ignore alternatives.

And you are as hopeless as a theist. You demonstrate every characteristic. You still, after 60 pages, cannot grasp what Evidence of Absence actually is.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-01-2015, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2015 08:41 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 07:08 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  For what it's worth... I agree with Chas, Stevil, and just about everyone in the thread other than Free. Free is claiming to have knowledge that he can't possibly have.

I see only two possibilities here:

(1) It is impossible for anyone to have absolute knowledge concerning the existence or non-existence of God(s). This is my position. If Free claims to have such knowledge, he is mistaken.

Do you even understand what you are saying here? Here is the definition of impossible:

Impossible

adjective
1. not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.


Firstly, if you say it is "impossible," then it necessarily implies that there is absolutely no possible knowledge in existence. If there was, then it would not be "impossible."

Secondly, your very statement contradicts itself because the way you phrase it necessarily implies that there is knowledge, but it is impossible to get it. Therefore, you must demonstrate that there is in fact any knowledge at all that is impossible to get.

Can you do this? No you can't. Why? Because it's fucking impossible, according to you.

Therefore, before you can support your positive claim that I can't have absolute knowledge regarding the existence or non existence of God, then you first must demonstrate proof that any such knowledge actually exists for me to have.

BUT ... since you claim that knowledge is unavailable because it is somehow "impossible," then you are up the shitty creek without a fucking paddle.

Welcome to Atheism 7.0, where reason is the rule and agnostics drool.

That will be all.

Thank you.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-01-2015, 08:28 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2015 08:36 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:00 PM)Free Wrote:  You still, after 60 pages, cannot grasp what Evidence of Absence actually is.

I think it was Chas who said something like "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence unless you were expecting to find evidence. Then its absence is evidence."

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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26-01-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 07:23 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Also, I don't necessarily buy into the "born atheist" concept. We are certainly not born as "strong atheists" or "gnostic atheists". We are born agnostic, with no knowledge one way or the other about anything, including the existence or non-existence of God.
Would you say that we are born without a belief in gods?
What single word would best be ascribed to people lacking a belief in gods?
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26-01-2015, 08:35 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 07:23 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Also, I don't necessarily buy into the "born atheist" concept. We are certainly not born as "strong atheists" or "gnostic atheists". We are born agnostic, with no knowledge one way or the other about anything, including the existence or non-existence of God.
Would you say that we are born without a belief in gods?
What single word would best be ascribed to people lacking a belief in gods?

Sane.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-01-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:00 PM)Free Wrote:  You still, after 60 pages, cannot grasp what Evidence of Absence actually is.

I think it was Chas who said something like "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence unless you were expecting to find evidence. Then it's absence is evidence."

Something like that. More like you'd need to know what kind of evidence it is that is absent, what evidence should be there.

I do like your phrasing, though.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-01-2015, 08:46 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think it was Chas who said something like "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence unless you were expecting to find evidence. Then it's absence is evidence."

Something like that. More like you'd need to know what kind of evidence it is that is absent, what evidence should be there.

I do like your phrasing, though.

On a side note Chas I just noticed you have made more than 25 fucking thousand posts! How is that even possible?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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26-01-2015, 08:49 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Something like that. More like you'd need to know what kind of evidence it is that is absent, what evidence should be there.

I do like your phrasing, though.

On a side note Chas I just noticed you have made more than 25 fucking thousand posts! How is that even possible?

He prayed in the name of The Old Man, the Kid, and the Holy Spook.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-01-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Something like that. More like you'd need to know what kind of evidence it is that is absent, what evidence should be there.

I do like your phrasing, though.

On a side note Chas I just noticed you have made more than 25 fucking thousand posts! How is that even possible?

Aw, shit. I meant to stop at 24,999. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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