Why do atheists become atheists?
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26-01-2015, 09:09 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:27 PM)Free Wrote:  ...(word salad)...

You are using your own definitions of "possible", "impossible", "knowledge", and "atheist", and will continue to alter them as needed to prevent having to admit that you're wrong. I'm not playing that game. I have said all I needed to say, and all I intend to say.
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26-01-2015, 09:12 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 09:09 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:27 PM)Free Wrote:  ...(word salad)...

You are using your own definitions of "possible", "impossible", "knowledge", and "atheist", and will continue to alter them as needed to prevent having to admit that you're wrong. I'm not playing that game. I have said all I needed to say, and all I intend to say.

Umm .. hint: if you click the big blue Impossible in that post it takes you to the dictionary where it gives you the universal definition, conclusively demonstrating how utterly fucking wrong you are. Big Grin

You know when things go from bad to worse for you when ...

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-01-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:28 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 07:23 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Also, I don't necessarily buy into the "born atheist" concept. We are certainly not born as "strong atheists" or "gnostic atheists". We are born agnostic, with no knowledge one way or the other about anything, including the existence or non-existence of God.
Would you say that we are born without a belief in gods?
What single word would best be ascribed to people lacking a belief in gods?

I'm comfortable with atheist, as long as it is not equated with "strong atheist" or "gnostic atheist" -- there are actually very few of those, I think they're all deluded, and none of them are infants. If you want to say that we are all born as agnostic atheists, I'll buy that. But I will not use that to conclude that we will necessarily remain atheists unless indoctrinated. That argument is demonstrably false, since religious beliefs had to originate somehow.
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26-01-2015, 09:16 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 09:12 PM)Free Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 09:09 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You are using your own definitions of "possible", "impossible", "knowledge", and "atheist", and will continue to alter them as needed to prevent having to admit that you're wrong. I'm not playing that game. I have said all I needed to say, and all I intend to say.

Umm .. hint: if you click the big blue Impossible in that post it takes you to the dictionary where it gives you the universal definition, conclusively demonstrating how utterly fucking wrong you are.

Big Grin

Dictionary definitions reflect common usage. They are not universal, and they don't "conclusively demonstrate" anything. And you are using your own definition/interpretation of the words in the dictionary definition. You are making up the rules as you go so that you can't possibly lose the argument. I'm not playing that game. Goodbye.
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26-01-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 09:14 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I'm comfortable with atheist, as long as it is not equated with "strong atheist" or "gnostic atheist" -- there are actually very few of those, I think they're all deluded, and none of them are infants. If you want to say that we are all born as agnostic atheists, I'll buy that. But I will not use that to conclude that we will necessarily remain atheists unless indoctrinated. That argument is demonstrably false, since religious beliefs had to originate somehow.
Agreed.
We are all born atheists (without belief in gods) and agnostics (without knowledge of gods).
Some people become theists later in life (choosing to take on belief in gods), some people become strong atheists (choosing to take on belief in no gods). Others remain agnostic atheists (choosing to reject the unsupported, poorly defined claims of gods).
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26-01-2015, 09:20 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 08:46 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 08:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  Something like that. More like you'd need to know what kind of evidence it is that is absent, what evidence should be there.

I do like your phrasing, though.

On a side note Chas I just noticed you have made more than 25 fucking thousand posts! How is that even possible?




#sigh
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26-01-2015, 09:28 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2015 09:35 PM by Free.)
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(26-01-2015 09:16 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(26-01-2015 09:12 PM)Free Wrote:  Umm .. hint: if you click the big blue Impossible in that post it takes you to the dictionary where it gives you the universal definition, conclusively demonstrating how utterly fucking wrong you are.

Big Grin

Dictionary definitions reflect common usage. They are not universal, and they don't "conclusively prove" anything. And you are using your own definition/interpretation of the words in the dictionary definition. You are making up the rules as you go so that you can't possibly lose the argument. I'm not playing that game. Goodbye.

Ummm here it is again from several dictionaries:

Quote:adjective
1.
not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impossible

Quote:a : incapable of being or of occurring

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/impossible

Quote:Incapable of having existence or of occurring.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/impossible

Quote:Not able to occur, exist, or be done

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...impossible

So ... tell me again how I have defined it wrong. Take your time. We can all wait.

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-01-2015, 09:33 PM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
Dude, in relation to this discussion, when you use the word impossible, you are saying it doesn't even exist. Hence, if the knowledge doesn't even exist for me to have, how then can you positively claim anyone can have knowledge that doesn't even exist?

You can't see this glaringly obvious contradiction?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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27-01-2015, 12:14 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
One last try

Let's put this in a logic form.

If we start with the premise
1) Absence of evidence does not equal "evidence of absence".

We term evidence as E and "Evidence of absence" as A
So !E != A (where the symbol ! denotes "not")
and we state that E = positive evidence (P) or negative evidence (N)
So E = P v N (where the symbol v denotes "or")
The opposite of this is
!E = !(P v N)
Expanding out the brackets we get
!E = !P . !N (Where the symbol . denotes "and")
Substituting !E from the first equation
!P . !N != A

Now lets take a look at Free's premise
"Evidence of Absence is the absence of any positive evidence"
A = !P

Let's put these two statements side by side.
!P . !N != A
A = !P
Since, according to Free's premise A is equivalent to !P then we can substitute !P with A into the first statement
A . !N != A

Putting this back into English
"Evidence of Absence" and absence of negative evidence != "Evidence of Absence".
absence of negative evidence is nothing, it's like saying absence of an apple. If we don't have an apple then we have nothing. So let's simplify the equation by removing that.
A = !A
This shows that the two premises are incompatible (they can't both be true)
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27-01-2015, 06:35 AM
RE: Why do atheists become atheists?
(27-01-2015 12:14 AM)Stevil Wrote:  One last try

Let's put this in a logic form.

If we start with the premise
1) Absence of evidence does not equal "evidence of absence".

We term evidence as E and "Evidence of absence" as A
So !E != A (where the symbol ! denotes "not")
and we state that E = positive evidence (P) or negative evidence (N)
So E = P v N (where the symbol v denotes "or")
The opposite of this is
!E = !(P v N)
Expanding out the brackets we get
!E = !P . !N (Where the symbol . denotes "and")
Substituting !E from the first equation
!P . !N != A

Now lets take a look at Free's premise
"Evidence of Absence is the absence of any positive evidence"
A = !P

Let's put these two statements side by side.
!P . !N != A
A = !P
Since, according to Free's premise A is equivalent to !P then we can substitute !P with A into the first statement
A . !N != A

Putting this back into English
"Evidence of Absence" and absence of negative evidence != "Evidence of Absence".
absence of negative evidence is nothing, it's like saying absence of an apple. If we don't have an apple then we have nothing. So let's simplify the equation by removing that.
A = !A
This shows that the two premises are incompatible (they can't both be true)

I don't know if that is correct or not Stevil but it is the first post I read this morning and now my head will be mush for the rest of the day. Thanks Blink

I'm looking forward to the responses from the maths guys.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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