Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
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16-09-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
OK people, Lets stop using cuss words and being so insulting to kittens...whatever.

So far, I have not seen anything that requires the responses from you all to be as hostile and cruel to the degree that they are. For all we know, this person could be sincere, and not quite a poe. We may not have any real way of telling this that is for sure, but they are still too new here to be acting this way towards them. It has been eight pages and I do not see any reply backs from that person here. So chances are, if they are a poe, your just feeding the troll anyway by your long list of pages giving them satisfaction of "oh hey look at all the pages worth of comments, Those people sure are stupid..ha ha ha" and so on.

If this person is genuine, they must simple be educated and you are simply only leaving a bad impression by comments such as suck my X or F off or whatever. Again, comments like that only feed the troll and make the truly ignorant and innocent have a bad impression. I suppose it is fine to leave just a single comment of your thoughts on what they said is fine, but I did not see them respond to this at all or any of our comments on this page, yet I see multiple comments from many of you, all of which have the same basic message of hostility.

So let's just keep all of that in mind and let this thread die.


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16-09-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 05:19 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(16-09-2014 05:11 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  Hold up wait a minute.

Unicorns are in the bible??

1. Numbers 23:22 – God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
2. Numbers 24:8 – God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
3. Deuteronomy 33:17 – His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
4. Job 39:9 – Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
5. Job 39:10 – Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
6. Psalm 22:21 – Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
7. Psalm 29:6 – He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
8. Psalm 92:10 – But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
9. Isaiah 34:7 – And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

...my bible says "wild ox" for all instances of unicorn. Consider

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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16-09-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 05:25 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  OK people, Lets stop using cuss words and being so insulting to kittens...whatever.
...
So let's just keep all of that in mind and let this thread die.

Hmmmm .... Consider .... nah, this was a drive by theist who ain't coming back so now we're just having fun. Don't dick with our playtoys. Big Grin

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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16-09-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(15-09-2014 07:10 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  
(15-09-2014 05:34 PM)KittensForChrist Wrote:  p: The Bible is God's word.*
q: The Bible says that God cannot lie.**
h: The Bible says that God exists.***
i: God cannot lie.
j: God exists.

[(p∧q⇒i)∧h]⇒j

* Proven by 2 Timothy 3:16.
** Proven by Numbers 23:19.
*** Proven by John 3:16.


This logically proves God without a shadow of doubt. It's even published in The Astronomical Journal, which proves that the argument is true and factual. It is impossible to disprove it because the conclusion logically follows the premises.

Will atheists be honest and renounce their atheism before it's too late? You all just hate God anyways, you aren't even atheists because everyone knows God exists. You're just mad because something bad happened to you, like the professor in that God's Not Dead movie. That movie has a very accurate depiction of atheism and disproves evolution "theory" and the Big Bang "theory" by proving that God exists by giving quotes by the greatest atheists showing they are unsure.

If you don't repent, you will die! Read Revelations and be very afraid, this is what will happen to you if you don't repent!

You are a poe as others have said, because not too many real Christians are as stupid as your comment makes them look.

Just in case as with everyone else.
Argument from Scripture is a logical fallacy. Harry potter says that hogwarts exists. But does that make it true? No, it does not in any way provide proof of anything.

Go to google, type in religion and circular logic and find a picture diagram depicting circular logic.

It will look like this.
[Image: circular-reasoning-in-creationism.jpg]

Only an idiot would not be able to see a problem with this. Just to add a bit of clarity.

There is a Invisible Pink elephant, living in my back pocket,
I know its there because X book tells me so
I know its true because the elephant is Infallable
I know that because Book X is the word of the elephant...see how it runs in a circle and goes no where and proves nothing?

Yes, yes - much more diplomatic.

How could it hurt someone by using words like stupid and idiot when responding to their post.

Glad you were able to show us how to be properly civil in our interaction with the ChristKitty.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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16-09-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 05:30 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  
(16-09-2014 05:19 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  1. Numbers 23:22 – God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
2. Numbers 24:8 – God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
3. Deuteronomy 33:17 – His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
4. Job 39:9 – Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
5. Job 39:10 – Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
6. Psalm 22:21 – Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
7. Psalm 29:6 – He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
8. Psalm 92:10 – But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
9. Isaiah 34:7 – And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

...my bible says "wild ox" for all instances of unicorn. Consider

KJV, the christian apologists have modified the bible to alleviate these painful scriptures. Here do a comparison here...

http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/numbers/23-22.html

You can type in the scripture, click the box and select which bible you want to look at. KJV is the oldest version, thus the truest to original. They figured out it was hard to explain away unicorns so they changed it to ox etc...

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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16-09-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 05:42 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Yes, yes - much more diplomatic.

How could it hurt someone by using words like stupid and idiot when responding to their post.

Glad you were able to show us how to be properly civil in our interaction with the ChristKitty.

ouch. That's gotta hurt. Big Grin

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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16-09-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 03:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Post #69

What do I win?

You win nothing because you already won; last I checked, 69 was its own reward. Especially if you stick it through to the special bonus at the end...

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16-09-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(15-09-2014 05:34 PM)KittensForChrist Wrote:  p: The Bible is God's word.*
q: The Bible says that God cannot lie.**
h: The Bible says that God exists.***
i: God cannot lie.
j: God exists.

[(p∧q⇒i)∧h]⇒j

* Proven by 2 Timothy 3:16.
** Proven by Numbers 23:19.
*** Proven by John 3:16.


This logically proves God without a shadow of doubt. It's even published in The Astronomical Journal, which proves that the argument is true and factual. It is impossible to disprove it because the conclusion logically follows the premises.

Will atheists be honest and renounce their atheism before it's too late? You all just hate God anyways, you aren't even atheists because everyone knows God exists. You're just mad because something bad happened to you, like the professor in that God's Not Dead movie. That movie has a very accurate depiction of atheism and disproves evolution "theory" and the Big Bang "theory" by proving that God exists by giving quotes by the greatest atheists showing they are unsure.

If you don't repent, you will die! Read Revelations and be very afraid, this is what will happen to you if you don't repent!

Hello KittensForChrist. Welcome to the forum. I read your "Knock Down" argument against Atheism. I have a few comments.

I noticed first that your argument is actually two separate arguments combined into one. This is a little confusing at first glance. For the sake of clarity in my commentary, I will separate them like so:

Argument 1
p: The Bible is God's word.*
h: The Bible says that God exists.***
j: God exists.

Argument 2
p: The Bible is God's word.*
q: The Bible says that God cannot lie.**
i: God cannot lie.

Both of these arguments are unsound due to their shared unjustified first premise. In order for the words of the bible to prove god's existence, or whether or not he is capable of lying, they must first be demonstrated to be god's word by evidence or logical arguments. That justification, should it be forthcoming, should not be derived from the bible's words, since that would constitute a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning.

The first argument is unsound due to the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. It's conclusion is that god exists, thus it is logical that god cannot be used as a premise for that conclusion. If god has not yet been demonstrated through logical argument to exist, who's word is the bible in premise one? Since the first argument is unsound, god has not been proven through logical argument to exist, and the second argument becomes unsound due to the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. God has not yet been demonstrated to exist, so who's word is the bible and who cannot lie?

These arguments are valid, but unsound. The premises support the conclusions, but not all the premises are true. In order for the argument to be the sound "knock Down" argument you said it would be, it's premises would also have to be true. These rules exist because a perfectly valid argument can be, and many have been, proven to have false conclusions. Here is an example:

All cups are green.
Socrates is a cup.
Therefore, Socrates is green.

If all valid arguments are considered beyond the possibility of disproof, Socrates must have been green. Was he? What do you think?

It is notable that if we withheld our skepticism and criticism and simply accepted the "proofs" of these arguments. , they would prove their conclusion for all god's and all religions, not just Christianity. Some religions have contradictory doctrines, which cannot simultaneously be true. Such a conclusion would be impossibly contradictory.

Although I was able to confirm the existence of "The Astronomical Journal", I was not able to confirm where or when this logical argument, or it's mathematical formula, were published. It is a possibility that I missed it, or did not look with thoroughness. For the sake of the benefit of the doubt, could you provide a direct link to the published version of this argument?

Even if I accept tentatively and temporarily that this argument was in fact published by The Astronomical Journal, its publication alone does not prove that the argument is true or factual. Such an assumption is fallacious due to an appeal to authority, rather than the merit of the argument, to prove the conclusion.

Renouncing Atheism is impossible for me to do honestly. As an authority on myself, I am aware of my doubt about a god's existence. I don't believe a god exists, and I can't help that by choice.

I don't feel any anger towards any supposed supernatural being, but I do feel anger towards the concept of him as likely invented by other people. One of the many reasons unbelievers like me don't consider, say Christianity, to be true is that we are aware of immoral actions taken by the Christian god as written in the bible, which directly conflict with biblical descriptions of god's nature. If you need a specific example consider the destruction of very nearly all creation via a flood.

Even without such contradictions, many of us have asked ourselves if we ought to be worshiping a being that is evidently immoral, at the very least by way of laziness or incompetence? Many of us have read the following from Epicurus and concluded that we wouldn't worship even if we believed.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Many of us have experienced something negative which was the impetus for our eventual disbelief, but never its primary cause. We have learned that sometimes it takes a direct and obvious example of something in the world which contradicts with our beliefs in order to consider questioning ourselves. I know no one who has chosen unbelief out of sheer anger or hurt, but I know many who have experienced something horrible which led them to question their former faith into extinction. Our objections are not rooted in one or two bad experiences, merely easier to illustrate using them. Of course many of us experienced nothing of the sort, but have come to identical objections.

"God's Not Dead" is not an accurate depiction of Atheism. I would recommend that you have discussions with actual Atheists in order to come to conclusions of that sort. We have no doctrines or centralized government, so we don't even individually represent each other's views. Certainly a movie like that, which is basically created as an evangelical tool for conversion to Christianity, is even worse as a source. I can understand why as a believer you might not trust Atheists, but until you decide to take our word for what we believe, you may never know for sure.

You are incorrect that the film disproved or discredited accepted theories of Science. Evolution and The Big Bang are supported by scientific evidence, and the only way they can be discredited is with more scientific evidence against them. The film did not even attempt to present such scientific evidence.

It is true that all Atheists are unsure. Atheism is not the positive claim that no god's exist. It is the disbelief in the existence of gods. That may seem a slight distinction to someone who is unfamiliar with it, but it makes a world of difference. We will gladly believe when the burden of proof is met by the people making the positive claims, which is all the religious people of the world. The truth is, I don't know if god or gods exist.

If that is difficult for you to understand, consider other mythological or supernatural creatures which you hold no personal belief in. Perhaps you are unconvinced as to the existence of goblins, fairies, or gnomes? Do you know that they don't exist? Well, you might say that in a casual setting, but philosophically speaking you don't know at all. There just isn't any evidence or logical argument that proves their existence. If you can picture this concept as applied to god, you know what it is like to be an Atheist. The main difference is that we get criticized when we say in practical terms that we "know" or are "certain" that no god's exist. On this one topic people tend to insist that you speak accurately in philosophical terms, and admit that what you really mean is "I don't know and without evidence for such an unusual, supernatural claim, I am going to live my life with the assumption that god or gods do not exist". It's a headache in case you were wondering.

I don't appreciate the arguments from fear. I don't know if you want us to burn or just want to warn us, but either way, that is really vulgar of you. Argue the points if you have any left, but the fear tactics are immoral and not welcome.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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16-09-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 03:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Post #69

What do I win?

If Losty were still posting here, I'd tell you to ask her. She's the expert on such things.
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16-09-2014, 08:11 PM
RE: Why do atheists deny this knock-down argument against atheism?
(16-09-2014 07:26 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(16-09-2014 03:39 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Post #69

What do I win?

If Losty were still posting here, I'd tell you to ask her. She's the expert on such things.

Isn't she back?

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