Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
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11-03-2017, 05:54 PM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
(11-03-2017 07:36 AM)BackSlider Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 10:34 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Well if you want me to answer the original post (directly), its because most Christians today aren't savages, yet they still want to be good 'moral' Christians. Happy now? happy for that circle jerk? or was that not the answer you were wanting? Did you want me to say its because they're cherry picking bigots who also commit confirmation bias?

Jeeesus, finally!

So these "discarded" OT bits, which were ordained from a loving, moral god (God the FATHER by the way) , in essence had his people living as savages by New Testament standards. Dodgy
Okay.
Then god duh FATHER must have got it wrong?
Or has the moral compass shifted, and it took Jesus ( SON of this old god) to release them from the immoral savagery bullchit GTFather ordained?

Ohhhh, THANK-YOU JESUS, I can eat shrimp! Thumbsup

WTF?
No doubt "they" are a pile of cherry picking bigots who also commit confirmation bias; as you suggest they are not.

Roll it back there, I'm not saying that they don't, but I'm not here to give every other atheist a circle jerk by demeaning others, especially when doing so they generally are highly hypocritical with their own actions.
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12-03-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
(10-03-2017 03:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  On occasions when I've been debating with a christian - usually of the evangelical persuasion - they bring up the subject of morality.

"If we didn't have the bible, " they say, "We would have no moral compass."

Or

"The bible provides us with moral guidance upon which our laws are based."

I won't say it's the dumbest claim ever made. There are too many to pick just one.

I suppose for the first four thousand years of existence parents taught their kids to murder, steal, destroy and take every opportunity to be cruel towards others. Much like atheists are still doing today.

(10-03-2017 03:42 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  So can anyone tell me the justification of this view? Where does it say any of this in the NT? And why do they claim this while at the same time cherry picking the OT?

Sheer laziness is my guess.
These days being religious means you have a blank slate and get to define your own reality. Being a theist, being an atheist, what the bible says, the nature of god - only means what you want it to.
Just look at the mormons.

Most people tend to confuse 'good' with 'what's extremely convenient for me', 'what's the least amount of effort I can put into this'. Oh I know. God commands me to live in accordance with my own personal morality and the reward for this "sacrifice" is immortality.
Zero work, ultimate pay.

The most hate-filled atheist alive could never drag the One True Faith as thoroughly through the mud.
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12-03-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
You mean like the bit about murdering your child if they don't obey every one of your demands? The idea that children are property and lacking person-hood seems to me to be pretty widespread even if they don't take a more literal interpretation (unless they are talking about pro life, because logical consistency is for chumps).

I can think of at least 5 people living near me that will openly state to anyone that they

1. Think the US IS a Christsian Theocracy, and if its not it should be.
2. Think that the murder of disobedient children should be legal
3. Think that Gay's and people with tattoo's should also be murdered.

I'm quite sure many more think this but won't say it. A true biblical literalist know's that Jesus didn't come to replace the law, and not one jot or tittle will be changed. They openly embrace the most reprehensible parts of the bible as moral imperatives. Not all Christians ignore inconvenient parts of the bible, but the more terroristy ones openly embrace them instead.

Of course people use the no true Scotsmen fallacy (they aren't real chrsitians), but it doesn't matter. They give the more reasonable ones a bad name, why don't the Christians ever stand up to crazy in their own group?

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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13-03-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
Having read articles by a variety of christian apologists and the contributions to this thread I'm faced with a conclusion that christians quote Old Testament laws when it suits them and ignore ones they do not wish to follow. There is no consistent, principled rule followed and theological reasoning is ignored when inconvenient.

Why am I not surprised?

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Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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13-03-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
(13-03-2017 07:30 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  Having read articles by a variety of christian apologists and the contributions to this thread I'm faced with a conclusion that christians quote Old Testament laws when it suits them and ignore ones they do not wish to follow. There is no consistent, principled rule followed and theological reasoning is ignored when inconvenient.
I think individual believers can be fairly consistent and principled, not realizing that the particular ruleset they assiduously follow is itself inconsistent and unprincipled and not really defensible.

That's why you can have, say, Seventh Day Adventists doing socially uncomfortable things like worshipping on the Jewish Sabbath, or you can have a poor person somewhere in rural America adhering to the tithe. I think it's a mistake to assume any one believer is deliberately being inconsistent and hypocritical. From their own self-image and intent they are often being very faithful and conscientious, particularly if you aren't talking about someone in leadership.

Also from their poorly thought-out perspective they are avoiding all the Really Big Sins like fornication, adultery and homosexuality so if they are wrong on a couple points of OT law who cares. Fundamentalism is 95% about putting your tallywhacker in the right place at the right time and isn't much concerned with how much OT law applies to NT believers.
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13-03-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
Most believers, in my experience, are going by what they've been told the bible says rather than what it actually says. And they certainly haven't been told about all the really inconvenient parts that make the whole thing into a moral quagmire.

I wish more of them would stop it with the myth that's it's the "inspired word of God", a very dangerous idea to pass on, and just put the book forward as primitive man trying to understand God. It's then perfectly reasonable to pick and choose what you find to be useful from it, without having to make stupid excuses.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-03-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
(13-03-2017 08:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Most believers, in my experience, are going by what they've been told the bible says rather than what it actually says. And they certainly haven't been told about all the really inconvenient parts that make the whole thing into a moral quagmire.

I wish more of them would stop it with the myth that's it's the "inspired word of God", a very dangerous idea to pass on, and just put the book forward as primitive man trying to understand God. It's then perfectly reasonable to pick and choose what you find to be useful from it, without having to make stupid excuses.
There is in my experience a definite reliance on pastors, theologians, and their cues. Any given individual will tend to defer to positions of people they regard as smarter and/or better trained, on "thorny questions". By circling the wagons around the party line they feel they have their bases covered. This is all enhanced by the general notion that people who ask "thorny questions" are Loki-like tricksters so not only are the questions difficult but the tactical approach to answering them without getting into some contrived "gotcha" is even trickier.

When talking to the faithful, apologists always make hand-waving dismissals that imply these things are all debunked old news, and of no concern. Everyone nods their heads in agreement, parrots the party line, and moves on.
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13-03-2017, 09:11 AM
RE: Why do christians think bits of the OT don't apply to them?
(13-03-2017 09:00 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 08:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Most believers, in my experience, are going by what they've been told the bible says rather than what it actually says. And they certainly haven't been told about all the really inconvenient parts that make the whole thing into a moral quagmire.

I wish more of them would stop it with the myth that's it's the "inspired word of God", a very dangerous idea to pass on, and just put the book forward as primitive man trying to understand God. It's then perfectly reasonable to pick and choose what you find to be useful from it, without having to make stupid excuses.
There is in my experience a definite reliance on pastors, theologians, and their cues. Any given individual will tend to defer to positions of people they regard as smarter and/or better trained, on "thorny questions". By circling the wagons around the party line they feel they have their bases covered. This is all enhanced by the general notion that people who ask "thorny questions" are Loki-like tricksters so not only are the questions difficult but the tactical approach to answering them without getting into some contrived "gotcha" is even trickier.

When talking to the faithful, apologists always make hand-waving dismissals that imply these things are all debunked old news, and of no concern. Everyone nods their heads in agreement, parrots the party line, and moves on.

I came from a background of fundamentalism, there was definitely a bubble that they put around themselves. You have to guard yourself against "worldly influences" like television, books, music, etc.

My former creationist friend would simply deride scientists as "evolutionists", biblical scholars that didn't agree with him as "secularists". It's really easy to live in a bubble when all it takes is a brainless and derisive epithet to dismiss any contrary information.

Just stick an "ists" on any group of people that don't agree with you and stop thinking.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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