Why do forums exist?
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02-03-2012, 06:06 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 07:21 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Why do forums exist?
(01-03-2012 12:17 PM)Zat Wrote:  Since the original title of the thread “Why do forums exist” was invoked, I would like to answer a different question: “What could forums be good for”?

The obvious answers, many have already offered was: community, sharing, learning, etc.

These are all very good and legitimate reasons.

However, there are other potential reasons we can think of.

The Internet is a powerful tool for social change and dissemination of information. Only those who are not concerned with the fate of the human species, the direction it is going and the massive, unspeakable injustice affecting the lives of billions on this planet, can be indifferent to this opportunity and potential goal.

Yes, I confess, in this sense I do have an agenda.

My agenda is to help people think outside the box that the mainstream media have locked them in and realize that there are sources of information, not yet silenced, that they can tap into and consider every issue from more than one angle – the angle of their rulers and exploiters.

It is not my future, which is almost over, that I am worried about – it is yours and your children and grandchildren that are facing a possibly very bleak future.

I am not very optimistic about accomplishing anything here, but I have nothing to lose, I might as well do the best I can.

Open, HONEST, clear and logical communication between human beings is the main key for any hope for the planet and the species.

I am sure I will have several of you sneer at this post, regardless how sincere, clear and logical I attempted to be.

Others may actually believe that I am neither a fool, nor a liar, enjoying some kind of perverse pleasure out of confrontation.

As Marilyn Monroe said when she was accused of wearing falsies: “those who know me better -- know better”. Smile

One can only hope.
This is probably why you keep getting your knickers in a twist. You talk like your an enlightened spiritual guru who has all this knowledge but then you fail to divulge anything. There is no knowledge, no content, nothing but silence.

You want people to grovel and beg? Oh please wise one may I have some more?

If you have knowledge you want to share, great! share it. It's free and once it's put out there is available to everyone. It can be copied effortlessly. What is stopping you?

I know your intelligent, probably smarter and more educated than me by far. Still this sort of behaviour is silly. Perhaps even arrogant? I don't know since I don't know what is in your mind, what your thoughts are.

Also, the internet can never be censored. The toothpaste is already out of the tube. Sure a site might be censored but the structure of the internet is such that censorship is not possible without fundamentally crippling it. Governments would never do that since it would hurt the economy along with their tax income which lines their pockets.

So I don't share the dystopian future you are seeing where there is no free speech any more. I see things swinging the other way.. China is having real trouble keeping the cat in the bag and beaten into submission. Civil war is on the cards if they don't clean up their act and that's just one example.

Sure I can see bad things happening but not anything censorship related on a global scale.

Also you gotta realise that things change so quickly these days. How can you be certain that this knowledge you have would still be relevant to people/society in 10 or 20 years time?

There will be different technology and different issues. Issues that couldn't be predicted with what we know now.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Proof that unbiased media will always be available:



“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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02-03-2012, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 12:41 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: Why do forums exist?
Communication Break down as LJ see's it.

The confines of this whole conversation is really bothering me. I have tried to be patient and understanding. I have tried to see what exactly is wanted here, but it is so near impossible. Talk about communication problems! Zat, it's like you want to suggest something but you want someone else to come up with it. When we all don't guess your train of thought or conclusions you get up on a soap box and tell us what we should have actually thought and typed about and what we should be exactly doing.

Your original post stated why we stay on the forum and keep trying.


(27-02-2012 07:23 PM)Zat Wrote:  Communication seems to be the hardest learned skill for most of us.

We tend to use undefined terms, unspecified premises, different sets of facts and/or pseudo-facts, we get emotional, we get off on trigger words, we miss half or more of the arguments of our partner, we totally misunderstand those that we don't miss, we go around in circles, we never resolve anything.

The big question, of course, considering how bad we are at it, why do we still keep trying?

Damn if I know! Big Grin

You received not TWO proper replies (which you later concluded) but several, from several different members. ALL valid answers or conclusions to your OP.


(29-02-2012 09:35 AM)Zat Wrote:  Actually, I was hoping to turn the thread into a discussion of communication skills, as I described the problems (as I see it) in the OP.

Is there any way to make people aware of this problem, of how frustrating it makes us when we feel as if we were not speaking the same language at all?

In the sciences, communication is (most of the time) very precise, purpose-driven, following a well understood pattern.

I sort of suspect that education is to blame -- students are not taught the basic skills for clear, precise and unambiguous communication.

So we carry this handicap with us through life: in our work, in our families and on forums like this.

So what do you think can be done about it, at least on a forum?

Is there any way to agree about the basic requirements needed for successful communication?

You poised a new question. So now members can chose to reply to the OP or this new one. And they do.



Someone (SR) asks you, since you aren't thus far volunteering.

(29-02-2012 09:41 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Would you care to communicate to us any proposed solutions you may have to solving poor communication?


Which you just should have in the first place because obviously you had a wealth of advice. (Which is fine, of course, but the delivery seems kind of sneaky. At that point in the discussion I chose to ignore this method, as that's consistent in many of your question-poised threads.)

(29-02-2012 10:02 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 09:41 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Would you care to communicate to us any proposed solutions you may have to solving poor communication?

No problem.

Zatamon’s 10 ‘Commandments’ Tongue for clear and useful communication

1. Read every line in every post of the thread before replying -- don't just scan.

2. If something is unclear, ask questions/definitions before jumping to conclusions.

3. Don’t put words never said into the mouth of the person you are replying to and NEVER alter a quote

4. Don’t let trigger words with bad association (for you) divert you from what was actually said

5. Make sure you use logic in a clear, unbroken line, leading from premises to conclusions

6. Give yourself time to THINK it over, before flying off the handle

7. Look at all the pros and cons of the issue, from as many different angles as you can

8. Make sure you research the facts your reply is based on

9. Provide evidence (if available)

10. Most important: State what you DO agree with (and why), as well as what you don’t agree with (and why).

(the input you were desiring in the first place, that most of us missed because we were never directly and precisely asked to list. Communication clarity?)

(29-02-2012 12:56 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I just have two rules

1: be polite
2: One does not simply leave an argument (in other words, if you entered a thread, you keep up with it)


Here you realize what you really want (the beauty of self discovery, something many of us benefit from on a forum)

(29-02-2012 04:52 PM)Zat Wrote:  When I started this thread, I just wanted to vent some frustration.

After Stark challenged me to make my suggestions, it occurred to me that this thread could be a good collection for communication peeves and suggestions by as many people as possible.

However the thread title is wrong and misleading.

I wonder if one of the mods could change the thread title to "Communication Peeves and Suggestions"?

(BTW I *think* you can change the title of a thread on the forum pages, I've done it before but I'm not sure if it's time sensitive)


Here is another reply you were looking for. This advice is sage. "If you have something to say, say it." Be clear and open and start off with it- no suggestions, no eluded words. Especially if you REALLY want others to pick up on it.

(29-02-2012 04:55 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Good in theory, but I'll be perfectly honest...if a person has rules that complex for conversing with them, I won't bother. Plus if a person responds to something, has no questions directed at me, and I have no questions for them, I don't reply. In fact if I don't reply, it doesn't mean I "tiptoed away", it means that your ideas were made clear, and I have nothing more to say. Period.

I have an effective communication suggestion: If you have something to say, then say it. There's nothing wrong with asking others opinions on things, but I don't like seeing posts where a question is posed, and yet the OP doesn't share their own opinion on the matter. It comes across as passive agressive, and kinda "sneaky" for lack of a better word.


Here (below) you are referring to being asked if a forum exists the way you've tried to map out for us.

I kind of take offence to this. After stepping away and reflecting, I realized there are a lot of false conclusions here. You are assuming we are all here to reach consensus and solve problems. That's not why I come here, nor a lot of people who have mentioned that's not why they come here. In fact, if you looked at all those replies from the posters in this very thread, you would see many alternatives.

Why are you here Zat? Meaning, what are you hoping to get from TTA forums? Is there something you need?



(29-02-2012 05:53 PM)Zat Wrote:  No, it doesn't! Sad

So far it is only humans and more humans, dressed up as confusion, misunderstanding and going around in circles, seldom reaching a consensus and/or solving problems! Big Grin

As I said: if you like it that way -- more power to you! Tongue

PS.

Yours are the Zeros and mine are the Ones and mine are prettier! Big Grin

(29-02-2012 07:04 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 06:12 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  What problems need to be solved? Problems of the world, individual, TTA?

All of the above!

Human communication problems are not restricted to forums.

Why do you think the world (and many people's private lives) are in such a mess? Huh

I know life isn't pretty, and from what little bit you shared in this thread I can't imagine the horror you've experienced. This world is full of drudgery and un-fixable problems. Death, sickness, war, illness, greediness, hate and jealousy. The list goes on. That is why I choose to communicate IRL with encouraging words, just being with someone, giving small gifts, sharing good memories on holidays, parties, small gatherings.

Communication is more than what's being said. Communication will never fit in a box (ask an autistic child this) or be a formula to follow. It's an experience, and not even just a human one.


(29-02-2012 07:30 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 06:12 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  Often in therapy a therapist will never know what thing they said or did helped specifically, but as long as it was a positive experience for their client then they 'got' something from it and can go further in life. The two could have seen the whole session completely different even though they were both there.

Actually, I have to admit one thing:

After reflecting on the issue, I realize that there are 2 basic ‘styles’ of communication.

Two basic styles are verbal and non-verbal. On a forum you can have verbal with a slight emoticon non-verbal support. There are literally dozens, maybe hundreds, of other tangent styles.



(01-03-2012 07:40 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 08:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Nah, it's more like you just got no clue what it's like to be a patient.

That's true, GirlyMan, and I have been very lucky.

It's both an advantage and a handicap, I know. So is the fact that I grew up in a Communist dictatorship -- I wasted many years trying to get out, but I have a much better understanding of the world now, having experienced both sides of the fence.

However, never being brainwashed by religion, I have to use my imagination as opposed to actual experience when trying to understand religion's victims.

This thread is about communication and 'languages'.

I was hoping more people would come forward with specific peeves and recommendations.

Only nach_in and Stark did so far -- there must be a lot more? Huh

So the thread went from why forums exist to communication and languages. ??? Maybe once you knew what you really wanted to talk about you could have started a new thread? You derailed your own thread.


And here (below again) you change your mind again- a third theme- What are forums good for? You could even combine these in an original post to get a spectrum of answers or break this up- but this style is fine too, as long as it can be accepted that not all members are going to follow a tangent half way through a thread.

(01-03-2012 12:17 PM)Zat Wrote:  Since the original title of the thread “Why do forums exist” was invoked, I would like to answer a different question: “What could forums be good for”?

The obvious answers, many have already offered was: community, sharing, learning, etc.

These are all very good and legitimate reasons.

However, there are other potential reasons we can think of.

The Internet is a powerful tool for social change and dissemination of information. Only those who are not concerned with the fate of the human species, the direction it is going and the massive, unspeakable injustice affecting the lives of billions on this planet, can be indifferent to this opportunity and potential goal.

Yes, I confess, in this sense I do have an agenda.

My agenda is to help people think outside the box that the mainstream media have locked them in and realize that there are sources of information, not yet silenced, that they can tap into and consider every issue from more than one angle – the angle of their rulers and exploiters.

It is not my future, which is almost over, that I am worried about – it is yours and your children and grandchildren that are facing a possibly very bleak future.

I am not very optimistic about accomplishing anything here, but I have nothing to lose, I might as well do the best I can.

Open, HONEST, clear and logical communication between human beings is the main key for any hope for the planet and the species.

I am sure I will have several of you sneer at this post, regardless how sincere, clear and logical I attempted to be.

Others may actually believe that I am neither a fool, nor a liar, enjoying some kind of perverse pleasure out of confrontation.

As Marilyn Monroe said when she was accused of wearing falsies: “those who know me better -- know better”. Smile

One can only hope.

I believe Deep Thought made a few good points about the media and how sheepy we are (not). Here on TTA I have seen many people pick apart different articles, videos and media messages in a critical manner. All generations deserve more credit IMO.

Your last three lines- Is that to mean (in a serious matter and tone) we should be so lucky to know more because you are here? Wow. I would hope I am better because of ALL the people I meet in life, whether or not they are smarter or moral or not- I learn from them. I probably am lucky to have you here, in all respect. But when someone thinks ALL people will benefit SOLEY from them, that's a bit presumptuous and all-mighty.


I sense doom in a lot of your words for the coming generations. I guess I see it two ways. One is quite the opposite- Hope. My daughter is in grade two and she knows more than I did at that age. She has a wisdom. She calls me on my BS. She is so right- her opinion or thoughts are no more less valuable than my own, and we are in the here and the now together. Her experiences are different than mine, despite me having more experience. Critical thinking in the works Smile In fact, there are classes devoted strictly to listening and critical thinking now in her curriculum.

The second is- so we are doomed. And? So a meteorite hits and we die... none of us are escaping death. So we self destruct. Well, I guess life as we don't know it will carry on. So there is death, destruction, sickness, pain, suffering, etc. I don't see these things being fixed any time soon and thus far, they have always existed. So what now? Now we can enjoy the things in between all this. The fascination, the wonder, the exploration. The happy moments, the beauty, the community. It's a choice. Love it and take it or dwell on it and become bitter and stressed- or just leave it. I am all for a helping hand and I think locally or globally are great places to start, philanthropy is amazing and media is JUST the tool to spread the word. TTA IS one of these solutions already, for like minded individuals seeking connection and support in the big world for a very real issue. There are forums for everything under the sun, find an interest and go for it.
One more note on styles and types of communication: Think about how many books there are with different styles authors use. And different people are drawn to different books. If all these authors wrote according to one doctrine of writing then life in literature would be sooo boring. The way people express their thoughts and ideas, needs and wants is so personal it's like an artist painting- it's expressive, not repressive.
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02-03-2012, 10:48 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
This is the longest, and most insightful post about a post that I've ever read. Kudos, LJ, for seeing to the heart of the matter.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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03-03-2012, 09:01 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
This has been really useful.
I've said previously that I have never forumed before so any and all insights into etiquette and decorum are gratefully appreciated.

As an observation: it's not much different from (or to or than depending where you live) real life verbal fora (sorry Ex, I know you don't like that word) where conversations veer and splinter and questions get redefined along the way.

But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Cheers
DLJ

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04-03-2012, 05:39 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(03-03-2012 09:01 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-03-2012, 05:47 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(04-03-2012 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 09:01 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

Yep, what he said Big Grin

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04-03-2012, 05:53 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(04-03-2012 05:47 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 09:01 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

Yep, what he said Big Grin

Yet, you were both, both concise and specific .

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04-03-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(04-03-2012 05:53 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:47 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 09:01 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

Yep, what he said Big Grin

Yet, you were both, both concise and specific .

Yeah, fuck you too. Shouldn't you be ogling and leering at your naked housemates? Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-03-2012, 06:07 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(04-03-2012 05:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:53 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:47 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 09:01 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But thanks to the above analysis, I will try, when creating threads to be concise and specific in what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

Yep, what he said Big Grin

Yet, you were both, both concise and specific .

Yeah, fuck you too. Shouldn't you be ogling and leering at your naked housemates? Wink

Yep, ditto AGAIN. Fuck, Girly, get outta my head Tongue

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04-03-2012, 06:12 PM
RE: Why do forums exist?
(04-03-2012 06:07 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:53 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:47 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  
(04-03-2012 05:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yeah, fuck that. Don't sound like fun to me.

Yep, what he said Big Grin

Yet, you were both, both concise and specific .

Yeah, fuck you too. Shouldn't you be ogling and leering at your naked housemates? Wink

Yep, ditto AGAIN. Fuck, Girly, get outta my head Tongue

I don't think we're in each other's head aurora, I just think we find ourselves at the same party. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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