Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
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08-01-2015, 12:42 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(08-01-2015 12:24 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(08-01-2015 12:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Not being from USA I couldn't give a toss about the ammendments.
The problem really is that tax payer's money is wasted on religious junk but not only that but specific religion e.g. Christianity. It gives a message to the public that non Christians aren't welcome or aren't valued. I'm sure the Christian folk could understand (re: the golden rule) how they would feel if their government spent money on and displayed Islamic symbols but didn't support Christian symbols.

That is what the amendment is about: government is preferring one religion over others.
As I said the ammendments are irrelevant to me. But the underlying basis is applicable to other countries and common sense.
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08-01-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(18-12-2014 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Christians are the persecuted group.
I know you're being satirical, but your remark prompts me to say: I think "persecuted" needs defining.

In my experience many, many Christians define "persecution" as "disagreeing with my beliefs" or even "not subscribing to my beliefs". They have a very low standard for what constitutes "persecution". They constantly confuse (1) disagreement and (2) a willingness to be open about it as "persecution".

The reason is that for most of human history, religion has enjoyed undeserved respect and deference in the marketplace of ideas. They are not used to competing on a level playing field. This feels like something has been taken from them -- and something HAS been taken from them -- it's just that what has been taken was a free pass that they never WERE entitled to.

Here's a clue: "Persecution" involves things like racks and thumbscrews and dungeons. It involves being systematically disenfranchised, dehumanized, disacknowleged and otherized. You know, Christians: the stuff you did during the Inquisition.

I know that having your ego investment in magical beliefs challenged FEELS like personal annihilation, but it's not. It is arguably easy to imagine that a lack of automatic tip-toeing around your cherished belief could LEAD to personal annihilation, but it won't -- any more than someone challenging your choice of favorite football team is likely to lead to personal annihilation.

So, I encourage Christians to quit acting all put upon and picked on, man and woman-up and start carrying your rhetorical weight in conversations about faith ... or, if you don't like the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
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08-01-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(08-01-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-01-2015 05:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not in public places - on public property. The distinction is key.

Thank you for clarifying. I would interpret the Constitution and amendments to say it is fine to have religious items on public property.

Only if open to all religions. All or none.

Quote:Also, I've noticed atheists leading charges to have religious displays, religious music, etc. removed from private property in public settings.

I'm going to need a citation for that, because I think you are mistaken.

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08-01-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
I think it's simple. Christians, Muslims, or any other religious group have a more difficult time seeing the other side of everything. Clearly. For example... separation of church (religion) and state. Most religious people don't understand this. They don't understand because they are convinced the church is good and all things of their religion is mostly good with good intentions. With that perception it would be hard to imagine why anyone wouldn't want religion and state to be inclusive. After all, religion is good and does good things for society.
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09-01-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
The amendment was written by Christians to disallow a state sect from ruling in a totalitarian religious fashion. Catholic and Protestant monarchs in England had been slaughtering the others for a long time. The framers never meant to have a-religious public life, they meant for sectarian beliefs not to dominate. Either side would have been fine with the ten commandments on display and iconic images or--fast forward--in God we trust on coinage.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-01-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The amendment was written by Christians to disallow a state sect from ruling in a totalitarian religious fashion. Catholic and Protestant monarchs in England had been slaughtering the others for a long time. The framers never meant to have a-religious public life, they meant for sectarian beliefs not to dominate. Either side would have been fine with the ten commandments on display and iconic images or--fast forward--in God we trust on coinage.

That's entirely untrue. Their concepts and many words were implemented by James Madison, who was a Deist. And Thomas Jefferson also a deist but christian in his sense of respecting the teachings of Jesus Christ, wrote letters to religious organizations in his native Virginia about what the point of these types of establishment clauses were for. It's not merely to avoid totalitarian control. It's not some matter you can say Christians can intemperate it the right way.. the ideas founders had other documents expressively saying it's actual purpose.

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09-01-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The amendment was written by Christians to disallow a state sect from ruling in a totalitarian religious fashion. Catholic and Protestant monarchs in England had been slaughtering the others for a long time. The framers never meant to have a-religious public life, they meant for sectarian beliefs not to dominate. Either side would have been fine with the ten commandments on display and iconic images or--fast forward--in God we trust on coinage.

That's entirely untrue. Their concepts and many words were implemented by James Madison, who was a Deist. And Thomas Jefferson also a deist but christian in his sense of respecting the teachings of Jesus Christ, wrote letters to religious organizations in his native Virginia about what the point of these types of establishment clauses were for. It's not merely to avoid totalitarian control. It's not some matter you can say Christians can intemperate it the right way.. the ideas founders had other documents expressively saying it's actual purpose.

The American Revolution wasn't the French Revolution. You had signers of the Dec and Constitution who led churches and Bible societies.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-01-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 12:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The American Revolution wasn't the French Revolution. You had signers of the Dec and Constitution who led churches and Bible societies.

And who created a framework for a secular government that mentions religion only to say that government can't be tied to it. The personal beliefs of the signers covered a wide spectrum. Luckily for us they were smart enough to see that the only way to preserve freedom OF religion was to keep government free FROM religion.

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09-01-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 01:23 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 12:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The American Revolution wasn't the French Revolution. You had signers of the Dec and Constitution who led churches and Bible societies.

And who created a framework for a secular government that mentions religion only to say that government can't be tied to it. The personal beliefs of the signers covered a wide spectrum. Luckily for us they were smart enough to see that the only way to preserve freedom OF religion was to keep government free FROM religion.

I hear what you are saying. But it's too broad to say free from religion to describe people who erected monuments and public spaces honoring both Christianity and Freemasonry, who opened and closed all their public meetings with prayer, who wrote off-government time about their faith, etc.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-01-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 02:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear what you are saying. But it's too broad to say free from religion to describe people who erected monuments and public spaces honoring both Christianity and Freemasonry, who opened and closed all their public meetings with prayer, who wrote off-government time about their faith, etc.

Do you have citations of monuments to Christianity and Freemasonry being erected on public spaces after the Constitution and by which of the framers?

I don't doubt that some did open and close meetings with prayer. Some were theists. The public and private activities and writings of the ones who weren't can also sound very different; politicians have always been the same. The point still holds that the government they created is separated from religious belief.

Anything written off government time is irrelevant except where it explains their thinking regarding the constitution. People are welcome to their personal beliefs. It is when they try to enshrine them as public policy that they have crossed the line.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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