Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
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09-01-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 02:48 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 02:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear what you are saying. But it's too broad to say free from religion to describe people who erected monuments and public spaces honoring both Christianity and Freemasonry, who opened and closed all their public meetings with prayer, who wrote off-government time about their faith, etc.

Do you have citations of monuments to Christianity and Freemasonry being erected on public spaces after the Constitution and by which of the framers?

I don't doubt that some did open and close meetings with prayer. Some were theists. The public and private activities and writings of the ones who weren't can also sound very different; politicians have always been the same. The point still holds that the government they created is separated from religious belief.

Anything written off government time is irrelevant except where it explains their thinking regarding the constitution. People are welcome to their personal beliefs. It is when they try to enshrine them as public policy that they have crossed the line.

Just go to the Capitol in DC where they give you a two-hour tour of all the artwork and all the allegories and all the Bible allusions. Again, a lot of the framers were fully pastors/elders in their churches, Bible printers, evangelists.

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09-01-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 12:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 12:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's entirely untrue. Their concepts and many words were implemented by James Madison, who was a Deist. And Thomas Jefferson also a deist but christian in his sense of respecting the teachings of Jesus Christ, wrote letters to religious organizations in his native Virginia about what the point of these types of establishment clauses were for. It's not merely to avoid totalitarian control. It's not some matter you can say Christians can intemperate it the right way.. the ideas founders had other documents expressively saying it's actual purpose.

The American Revolution wasn't the French Revolution. You had signers of the Dec and Constitution who led churches and Bible societies.

Signers, ratifiers, or those who agreed to the principals aren't the writers; Since "written" was you exact chosen word, your claim is still coming up false.. But nice attempted shifting of your argument.

People who want to counter defend things like this to THEIR preferred religious belief or ideal is definitely a case of why someone claims they're being attacked. You may be sensible enough to not use that claim, but people in your position of this case are ones who foolish would.

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09-01-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 03:09 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Just go to the Capitol in DC where they give you a two-hour tour of all the artwork and all the allegories and all the Bible allusions. Again, a lot of the framers were fully pastors/elders in their churches, Bible printers, evangelists.

As I expected. You have nothing but assertions with nothing to actually back them up. Artwork with biblical allusions does not prove that the framers of the constitution did not set up a system to keep church and state separate. I've already agreed that some of the framers were theists (some were deists, some I would bet were atheists or would be if they had today's science available to them); the point is still that they created a government apart from religion. You really are a waste of time and energy.

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12-01-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(09-01-2015 05:39 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 03:09 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Just go to the Capitol in DC where they give you a two-hour tour of all the artwork and all the allegories and all the Bible allusions. Again, a lot of the framers were fully pastors/elders in their churches, Bible printers, evangelists.

As I expected. You have nothing but assertions with nothing to actually back them up. Artwork with biblical allusions does not prove that the framers of the constitution did not set up a system to keep church and state separate. I've already agreed that some of the framers were theists (some were deists, some I would bet were atheists or would be if they had today's science available to them); the point is still that they created a government apart from religion. You really are a waste of time and energy.

All,

It's fine and well to look at three or four drafters and editor of the Dec, Constitution and etc. but many founders had to ratify and approve these documents. There is no doubt whether taking them as representative (pun not intended) of their time and culture or as individuals that these were religious Christians who thoroughly knew the scriptures and intended to setup some laws to prevent the abuses of Britain and the papacy while safeguarding the right of all Americans present and future to worship Jesus Christ.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-01-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 12:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's fine and well to look at three or four drafters and editor of the Dec, Constitution and etc. but many founders had to ratify and approve these documents. There is no doubt whether taking them as representative (pun not intended) of their time and culture or as individuals that these were religious Christians who thoroughly knew the scriptures and intended to setup some laws to prevent the abuses of Britain and the papacy while safeguarding the right of all Americans present and future to worship Jesus Christ.

They defined a system where government was not allowed to promote or favor any religion. They specifically restricted any religious affiliation from being a requirement for office.

That what they set up allows "all Americans present and future to worship Jesus Christ" is true, but it is a gross misrepresentation of the constitution.

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12-01-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 12:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-01-2015 05:39 PM)unfogged Wrote:  As I expected. You have nothing but assertions with nothing to actually back them up. Artwork with biblical allusions does not prove that the framers of the constitution did not set up a system to keep church and state separate. I've already agreed that some of the framers were theists (some were deists, some I would bet were atheists or would be if they had today's science available to them); the point is still that they created a government apart from religion. You really are a waste of time and energy.

All,

It's fine and well to look at three or four drafters and editor of the Dec, Constitution and etc. but many founders had to ratify and approve these documents. There is no doubt whether taking them as representative (pun not intended) of their time and culture or as individuals that these were religious Christians who thoroughly knew the scriptures and intended to setup some laws to prevent the abuses of Britain and the papacy while safeguarding the right of all Americans present and future to worship Jesus Christ.

No, just no. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything even remotely resembling that.

And they weren't all Christians, so there's that.

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12-01-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 02:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 12:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

It's fine and well to look at three or four drafters and editor of the Dec, Constitution and etc. but many founders had to ratify and approve these documents. There is no doubt whether taking them as representative (pun not intended) of their time and culture or as individuals that these were religious Christians who thoroughly knew the scriptures and intended to setup some laws to prevent the abuses of Britain and the papacy while safeguarding the right of all Americans present and future to worship Jesus Christ.

No, just no. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything even remotely resembling that.

And they weren't all Christians, so there's that.

I never said the Constitution said such but they spoke off line about just such issues. Taxation was not the sole issue prompting the Revolution. And they were overwhelmingly Christians. I'll find some citations for you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-01-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And they were overwhelmingly Christians. I'll find some citations for you.

Don't bother. Cherry-picking quotes doesn't help. What matters is the framework they created which does not base the US government on Christianity in any way.

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12-01-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 02:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, just no. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything even remotely resembling that.

And they weren't all Christians, so there's that.

I never said the Constitution said such but they spoke off line about just such issues. Taxation was not the sole issue prompting the Revolution. And they were overwhelmingly Christians. I'll find some citations for you.

Which ones were "overwhelmingly" christian... the Writers which was your initial comment or the goal-shifted selected group you changed your claim to later about the ratifiers?

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12-01-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: Why do people claim Atheists are attacking them?
(12-01-2015 03:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-01-2015 02:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, just no. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say anything even remotely resembling that.

And they weren't all Christians, so there's that.

I never said the Constitution said such but they spoke off line about just such issues. Taxation was not the sole issue prompting the Revolution. And they were overwhelmingly Christians. I'll find some citations for you.

You cannot seem to understand that it does not matter what a few of America's early leaders believed when it comes to the validity and intention behind a claim or spiritual view. Stop the confirmation bias with this country's founders in trying to support your fantasy tales - jackass.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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