Why do theists come to this forum?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-02-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
My daughter had a relationship with her imaginary friend Sha-La. I have never figured out where she came up with that name. She would talk to Sha-La when she was playing in her sandbox. She made plans for what she and Sha-La would do together. I even included Sha-La when I made little picnic lunches.

That was when my daughter was four. Sha-La was very 'real' to my daughter and was a constant companion for about a year. But we knew that Sha-La wasn't real. But, somehow that 'relationship' was something my daughter needed and enjoyed.

Then she grew out of that phase, at about age five or six. Sha-La still comes up in conversation now and then - some 30+ years later. The thing is that we all know that Sha-La wasn't/isn't real and we weren't trying to get anyone else to believe she was.

Grow up Q. You are claiming a relationship with a creation of your mind. It's your imaginary friend. If that 'relationship' does something for you that you need...fine. Just stop trying to get us to believe in your version of Sha-La.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Anjele's post
09-02-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(08-02-2016 07:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Thanks for admitting that your belief is a "gap filler" to enable you to answer those questions, and not a 'relationship' with a god, as most theists would claim. Religion has no corner on the market for "meaning, morality, truth" and goodness". If you *need* it to find that. The fact you think it does, proves you are Presuppositionalist.

Questions of meaning, truth, morality, and goodness, and in particular imagining them as reconcilable with a cosmic accident, that conclusion doesn't seem to follow, the fact that atheists prefer to lack a belief, as opposed to believe, doesn't bode well for this alternative conclusion either.

As I've said before, I believe because I don't know how not to believe. If I were to take the series of beliefs I hold and replace them with a lack of belief, as opposed to holding contrary belief, I'd be lying to myself, and to others. There's no gap's here for me, there's just a line. For me not to believe in God, would be akin to me not believing I have two hands, or that's it's not snowing outside my window.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 07:19 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 08:02 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Still don't get what's a problem with not believing that

you seem to keep defaulting to there being some issue if you don't have an all encompassing "world view" and answers for everything... but why? you never go beyond that to actually indicate or talk about why you even think that matters. And I've tried to ask that multiple times, why does it mean or change anything? what is the world view concept actually doing or benefiting?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 07:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Thanks for admitting that your belief is a "gap filler" to enable you to answer those questions, and not a 'relationship' with a god, as most theists would claim. Religion has no corner on the market for "meaning, morality, truth" and goodness". If you *need* it to find that. The fact you think it does, proves you are Presuppositionalist.

Questions of meaning, truth, morality, and goodness, and in particular imagining them as reconcilable with a cosmic accident, that conclusion doesn't seem to follow, the fact that atheists prefer to lack a belief, as opposed to believe, doesn't bode well for this alternative conclusion either.

That conclusion doesn't follow for you, but a non-believer doesn't feel compelled to reconcile those at all.

Quote:As I've said before, I believe because I don't know how not to believe.

Let me get this clear: you don't know how not to believe, yet "atheists prefer to lack a belief"? Consider
Since there is no evidence of gods or leprechauns, belief in them is irrational. Skeptics are, by and large, rational.

Quote:If I were to take the series of beliefs I hold and replace them with a lack of belief, as opposed to holding contrary belief, I'd be lying to myself, and to others.

No one is asking you to do that, just pointing out that belief without evidence is irrational.

Quote:There's no gap's here for me, there's just a line. For me not to believe in God, would be akin to me not believing I have two hands, or that's it's not snowing outside my window.

No, it wouldn't. The difference is evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As I've said before, I believe because I don't know how not to believe. If I were to take the series of beliefs I hold and replace them with a lack of belief, as opposed to holding contrary belief, I'd be lying to myself, and to others. There's no gap's here for me, there's just a line. For me not to believe in God, would be akin to me not believing I have two hands, or that's it's not snowing outside my window.

Hmmm, I can understand that I guess, because for me it is the opposite.

Theists don't seem to understand that there is no way I could make myself believe.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
09-02-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(08-02-2016 07:13 PM)mgoering Wrote:  I'm talking about the rational arguments that are given here. For example, in this post you equate God with questions about meaning, morality, truth and goodness. How do you make that connection when you read about what a insecure, spiteful, vengeful, impatient prick the God of the OT is. That's just one example.

For one I don't have a problem with the old testament God, or the stories,or the communities and people surrounding OT passages. I'd imagine if I was a liberal humanist I might, but I'm not.

But for a Christian such as myself what goodness represents is embodied in the person of Christ, where as for you and other perhaps that might be better represented by a Sam Harris, or a Bernie Sanders. For you, and perhaps others morality, and goodness, are merely a matter of tolerance, a respect for privacy, and an avoidance of harm, actions as opposed to intentions. I can’t say this is the same for me.

And if you subscribe to subjective morality, that a concept like Good is subjective. I’m not sure how you can argue that the God character in the OT, or in NT is not Good or Moral, or even question a reconciliation here. If you believe it’s subjective than you’re sort of asking me how do I reconcile the fact that I like good food, with the fact that I think a plain cheeseburger at McDonalds tastes good. It doesn’t really require reconciliation.

Quote:I'm sure you also realize that there are billions of people on this planet of many different faiths (and millions with no faith at all) who possess meaning, morality, truth and goodness, just as much as any christian would. How do you explain that?

Of course they do, it would be more of a problem for my beliefs if they didn't. Religions were formed by these various desires, for truth, meaning, and goodness.

It's imagining our desire for truth, for meaning and goodness, as product of a cosmic accident, that makes atheism far from persuasive for me. It would be odd for me to believe that we have this innate desire for meaning, but find ourselves partaking in a reality that declares there is none. That we’re born seeking after a purpose, in an existence that is ultimately purposeless.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  As I've said before, I believe because I don't know how not to believe. If I were to take the series of beliefs I hold and replace them with a lack of belief, as opposed to holding contrary belief, I'd be lying to myself, and to others. There's no gap's here for me, there's just a line. For me not to believe in God, would be akin to me not believing I have two hands, or that's it's not snowing outside my window.

Hmmm, I can understand that I guess, because for me it is the opposite.

Theists don't seem to understand that there is no way I could make myself believe.

I think it's true for me as much as it is for you. That sort switching sides here, for me to be on your end, and you to be on my end, is damn near impossible, bar something drastic, analogous to irreparable brain damage. We'd have to switch sides, and live drastically different lives, that put certain questions at the forefront of who here, and others as peripheral. We'd have to have a similar life to think about, similar experiences to reflect on, similar people that we think of, and questions that provoke us. We're not responding to the same stimuli, but radically different ones that compose our unique existence.

If you were my sister it would probably be easier for you to believe as I do, but as an alien even less so.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  That conclusion doesn't follow for you, but a non-believer doesn't feel compelled to reconcile those at all.

Some non-believers, like the Philosopher Alex Rosenberg in The Atheist Guide to Reality do feel compelled to reconcile this. And I think this is the tendency among professional atheists, philosophers and such. The “lack of belief” moniker seems more prevalent among the run of the mill atheists such as yourself, and less so among the professional fold, those who attempt to compose a worldview, rather then settle for a lack of belief.

Quote:Since there is no evidence of gods or leprechauns, belief in them is irrational. Skeptics are, by and large, rational.

Looking down for you nest they probably do appear “rational”, because not surprisingly they look a lot like you. From my perspective they all just look confused and bewildered to the point they find themselves lacking belief. They look at the totality of their own lives, and experiences, all sorts of stimuli and can’t find in themselves to believe anything here. They neither believe that God exists, nor believe that he doesn’t. They neither believe in a reality endowed with a sense of purpose and meaning, nor in one void of it. They just like belief.

If this is what constitutes as rational, it’s just one big farce.

(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's no gap's here for me, there's just a line. For me not to believe in God, would be akin to me not believing I have two hands, or that's it's not snowing outside my window.

No, it wouldn't. The difference is evidence.

No, the real difference is semantics, as to what and what not classifies under the category of evidence. And the fact of the matter is when I am led to believe it’s snowing outside, it’s not though a consideration of what or what not classifies as evidence. I’m just taking in a variety of different stimuli that leads me to certain conclusions. I don’t attempt to parse out which stimulus classifies under Chas’s category of evidence, and which doesn’t. Because to me all of it classifies, that everything that leads me to believe this or that, is evidence.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-02-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2016 07:13 PM)mgoering Wrote:  I'm talking about the rational arguments that are given here. For example, in this post you equate God with questions about meaning, morality, truth and goodness. How do you make that connection when you read about what a insecure, spiteful, vengeful, impatient prick the God of the OT is. That's just one example.

For one I don't have a problem with the old testament God, or the stories,or the communities and people surrounding OT passages. I'd imagine if I was a liberal humanist I might, but I'm not.

There are so many things wrong with the OT that I wouldn't know where to begin. So I won't. Bottom line, you don't see those things because you don't read it with a rational eye. Which is fine, if that's how you choose to view it.

Quote:But for a Christian such as myself what goodness represents is embodied in the person of Christ, where as for you and other perhaps that might be better represented by a Sam Harris, or a Bernie Sanders. For you, and perhaps others morality, and goodness, are merely a matter of tolerance, a respect for privacy, and an avoidance of harm, actions as opposed to intentions. I can’t say this is the same for me.

And if you subscribe to subjective morality, that a concept like Good is subjective. I’m not sure how you can argue that the God character in the OT, or in NT is not Good or Moral, or even question a reconciliation here. If you believe it’s subjective than you’re sort of asking me how do I reconcile the fact that I like good food, with the fact that I think a plain cheeseburger at McDonalds tastes good. It doesn’t really require reconciliation.

Quote:I'm sure you also realize that there are billions of people on this planet of many different faiths (and millions with no faith at all) who possess meaning, morality, truth and goodness, just as much as any christian would. How do you explain that?

Of course they do, it would be more of a problem for my beliefs if they didn't. Religions were formed by these various desires, for truth, meaning, and goodness.


So, from what I hear you saying, truth, meaning and goodness can come from many different sources. For you it's embodied in the person of Christ. For people with other religions it comes from their deities. You didn't bother explaining where the source is for non-believers --- except to say perhaps from Sam Harris or Bernie Sanders.

I think atheists come at it from a different angle. They first conclude, rationally and by overwhelming evidence, that Christian beliefs are just myths. At that point they can surmise where truth, goodness etc comes from. Those things obviously exist, but there is no definitive answer as to where they come from. But, we should first whittle down the answers by eliminating all of the irrational suppositions.

Quote:It's imagining our desire for truth, for meaning and goodness, as product of a cosmic accident, that makes atheism far from persuasive for me. It would be odd for me to believe that we have this innate desire for meaning, but find ourselves partaking in a reality that declares there is none. That we’re born seeking after a purpose, in an existence that is ultimately purposeless.

Again, you find it inconceivable for all these qualities you mentioned to come form a cosmic accident. Your'e "reasoning" that this could never be the case. You're eliminating the possibility because you find it irrational. Fine. Not all atheists believe in the big bang theory. But, then why do you insist on ignoring the rational arguments against the OT and Christianity? My guess is that you have so much invested in it that you don't dare try to examine how irrational it is. It gives you comfort to believe it, so you don't want to challenge it.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mgoering's post
09-02-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 09:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Dom Wrote:  Hmmm, I can understand that I guess, because for me it is the opposite.

Theists don't seem to understand that there is no way I could make myself believe.

I think it's true for me as much as it is for you. That sort switching sides here, for me to be on your end, and you to be on my end, is damn near impossible, bar something drastic, analogous to irreparable brain damage. We'd have to switch sides, and live drastically different lives, that put certain questions at the forefront of who here, and others as peripheral. We'd have to have a similar life to think about, similar experiences to reflect on, similar people that we think of, and questions that provoke us. We're not responding to the same stimuli, but radically different ones that compose our unique existence.

If you were my sister it would probably be easier for you to believe as I do, but as an alien even less so.

I don't know that this matters that much, religions span the globe and so does atheism.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: