Why do theists come to this forum?
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09-02-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's imagining our desire for truth, for meaning and goodness, as product of a cosmic accident, that makes atheism far from persuasive for me.

Alas, appealing to consequences does not count as a real argument.

(09-02-2016 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It would be odd for me to believe that we have this innate desire for meaning, but find ourselves partaking in a reality that declares there is none. That we’re born seeking after a purpose, in an existence that is ultimately purposeless.

Alas, appealing to personal incredulity does not count as a real argument.

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09-02-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
What do you mean by "cosmic accident"?
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09-02-2016, 11:36 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 10:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  That conclusion doesn't follow for you, but a non-believer doesn't feel compelled to reconcile those at all.

Some non-believers, like the Philosopher Alex Rosenberg in The Atheist Guide to Reality do feel compelled to reconcile this. And I think this is the tendency among professional atheists, philosophers and such. The “lack of belief” moniker seems more prevalent among the run of the mill atheists such as yourself, and less so among the professional fold, those who attempt to compose a worldview, rather then settle for a lack of belief.

Quote:Since there is no evidence of gods or leprechauns, belief in them is irrational. Skeptics are, by and large, rational.

Looking down for you nest they probably do appear “rational”, because not surprisingly they look a lot like you. From my perspective they all just look confused and bewildered to the point they find themselves lacking belief. They look at the totality of their own lives, and experiences, all sorts of stimuli and can’t find in themselves to believe anything here. They neither believe that God exists, nor believe that he doesn’t. They neither believe in a reality endowed with a sense of purpose and meaning, nor in one void of it. They just like belief.

If this is what constitutes as rational, it’s just one big farce.

(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it wouldn't. The difference is evidence.

No, the real difference is semantics, as to what and what not classifies under the category of evidence. And the fact of the matter is when I am led to believe it’s snowing outside, it’s not though a consideration of what or what not classifies as evidence. I’m just taking in a variety of different stimuli that leads me to certain conclusions. I don’t attempt to parse out which stimulus classifies under Chas’s category of evidence, and which doesn’t. Because to me all of it classifies, that everything that leads me to believe this or that, is evidence.

With your definition of rational, anything that can be imagined would be evidence of it's existence. If something stimulates your brain to believe it's true, well then it must exist.

You know Tomasia, I believe you're being sincere here. I've heard that there are those who have to derive their answers for things through rational analyses, and can't accept answers that don't stand up to the test. While others' brains are wired to accept things on just a deep belief. I think all of us here are in the first camp and you fall into the second camp. And there's nothing that we can tell each other that will change our minds.

That said, there are many who come here because they grew up being told what to believe. When they grow up and are allowed to think on their own, they conclude that it's all BS. This is safe place (maybe the only place) for them to come and have their beliefs validated.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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09-02-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 11:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's imagining our desire for truth, for meaning and goodness, as product of a cosmic accident, that makes atheism far from persuasive for me.

Alas, appealing to consequences does not count as a real argument.

(09-02-2016 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It would be odd for me to believe that we have this innate desire for meaning, but find ourselves partaking in a reality that declares there is none. That we’re born seeking after a purpose, in an existence that is ultimately purposeless.

Alas, appealing to personal incredulity does not count as a real argument.

Sorry. Please play again!

I'd throw in playing Texas Sharpshooter with unproven assumptions too.

He's got a real knack for that. Rolleyes

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-02-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Well, Q, have you left?

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09-02-2016, 09:04 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2016 09:11 PM by Chas.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 10:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  That conclusion doesn't follow for you, but a non-believer doesn't feel compelled to reconcile those at all.

Some non-believers, like the Philosopher Alex Rosenberg in The Atheist Guide to Reality do feel compelled to reconcile this. And I think this is the tendency among professional atheists, philosophers and such.

Please explain what a "professional atheist" is.

Quote:The “lack of belief” moniker seems more prevalent among the run of the mill atheists such as yourself, and less so among the professional fold, those who attempt to compose a worldview, rather then settle for a lack of belief.

That is a classic Tomasia piece of insulting horseshit. Your ignorant arrogance is so charming.

Quote:
Quote:Since there is no evidence of gods or leprechauns, belief in them is irrational. Skeptics are, by and large, rational.

Looking down for you nest they probably do appear “rational”, because not surprisingly they look a lot like you. From my perspective they all just look confused and bewildered to the point they find themselves lacking belief. They look at the totality of their own lives, and experiences, all sorts of stimuli and can’t find in themselves to believe anything here. They neither believe that God exists, nor believe that he doesn’t. They neither believe in a reality endowed with a sense of purpose and meaning, nor in one void of it. They just like belief.

Your perspective is so badly skewed by presupposition that it is pretty much pointless.
You suppose that atheists don't have a worldview, you suppose that atheists don't believe one way or another, you suppose that you know what is in their minds.

You are wrong on all counts. I make no claim about the existence or non-existence of gods, only that there is no evidence for their existence so I don't believe they exist.

What do I believe? I believe that all gods are imaginary. Do I claim they are? No, because it is neither falsifiable nor provable.
You seem unable to tell the difference between claims and beliefs.

Quote:If this is what constitutes as rational, it’s just one big farce.

You have made a straw man argument. It's yours, not ours.

Quote:
(09-02-2016 07:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it wouldn't. The difference is evidence.

No, the real difference is semantics, as to what and what not classifies under the category of evidence. And the fact of the matter is when I am led to believe it’s snowing outside, it’s not though a consideration of what or what not classifies as evidence. I’m just taking in a variety of different stimuli that leads me to certain conclusions. I don’t attempt to parse out which stimulus classifies under Chas’s category of evidence, and which doesn’t. Because to me all of it classifies, that everything that leads me to believe this or that, is evidence.

No, really, the difference is evidence. You have none. And you don't even understand what evidence is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-02-2016, 09:05 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 11:24 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What do you mean by "cosmic accident"?

It's his way of denigrating naturalism. And he refuses to admit it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-02-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
I came here to discuss the possibility/ probability of a singular creative force. And to understand the hatred that seems to permiate some non believers and believers. Many atheists have a firm grasp on reality and an ability to sift through bs. I can relate to many of their arguments as I was atheist for a long time through early childhood up until early adulthood. I find the actual genuine conversation intriguing, but rare.

And yes, I do feel like I am at least putting forth some effort towards understanding and unity with hopes of betterment of existence for future generations through worldwide peace. I think I am supposed to be here to some extent. Not necessarily to help others, but perhaps to strengthen my own resolve and/ or test it. I think that individuals with a rational, logical, mindset that can also understand that there is at least a dormant possibility for inherent good in man could be quite a commodity to bringing about unity and prosperity.

That's a start anyway.
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09-02-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 09:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I came here to discuss the possibility/ probability of a singular creative force. And to understand the hatred that seems to permiate some non believers and believers. Many atheists have a firm grasp on reality and an ability to sift through bs. I can relate to many of their arguments as I was atheist for a long time through early childhood up until early adulthood. I find the actual genuine conversation intriguing, but rare.

And yes, I do feel like I am at least putting forth some effort towards understanding and unity with hopes of betterment of existence for future generations through worldwide peace. I think I am supposed to be here to some extent. Not necessarily to help others, but perhaps to strengthen my own resolve and/ or test it. I think that individuals with a rational, logical, mindset that can also understand that there is at least a dormant possibility for inherent good in man could be quite a commodity to bringing about unity and prosperity.

That's a start anyway.

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09-02-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(09-02-2016 09:25 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(09-02-2016 09:22 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  I came here to discuss the possibility/ probability of a singular creative force. And to understand the hatred that seems to permiate some non believers and believers. Many atheists have a firm grasp on reality and an ability to sift through bs. I can relate to many of their arguments as I was atheist for a long time through early childhood up until early adulthood. I find the actual genuine conversation intriguing, but rare.

And yes, I do feel like I am at least putting forth some effort towards understanding and unity with hopes of betterment of existence for future generations through worldwide peace. I think I am supposed to be here to some extent. Not necessarily to help others, but perhaps to strengthen my own resolve and/ or test it. I think that individuals with a rational, logical, mindset that can also understand that there is at least a dormant possibility for inherent good in man could be quite a commodity to bringing about unity and prosperity.

That's a start anyway.

Humanity has inherent good? News to me. Drinking Beverage
That's why I said the possibility for it, and that it is dormant in many, definitely including religious folk.

But yes it is observable in all walks, If only nominally.
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