Why do theists come to this forum?
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11-02-2016, 12:13 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Hello everyone

I often ask myself why people argue or have differences in opinion. There is the difference in language and interpretation and of course the fundamental right to hold an opinion but when it comes down to it, is human nature a trait where it believes it is correct in its assumptions until proven wrong?

Secretly too I think we all want to impart wisdom or be educators. This can be an active or passive role I.e. I can tell you why I'm right or I can give examples which imply I'm right.

This can be very nuanced and difficult to decipher on a forum. The morals from atheism vs theism is a common bait and switch topic.

The big picture is very important when assessing a situation. This involves taking in as much information as possible even from sources you may not agree with.

So while you may not agree I think it is very important to get a theists view. I'm sure too that we won't agree on everything as atheists.

We like to think that we can change our minds when presented with rationale and reason. But I think we need to accept that process while not impossible can be difficult, especially if your big picture ain't that big.
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11-02-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Pops asked me to prove he was an idiot and then kindly saved me the effort. Big Grin

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-02-2016, 02:00 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(11-02-2016 12:13 AM)Safewing Wrote:  I often ask myself why people argue or have differences in opinion. There is the difference in language and interpretation and of course the fundamental right to hold an opinion but when it comes down to it, is human nature a trait where it believes it is correct in its assumptions until proven wrong?

Why people have differences in opinion or why they argue? It's no question at all. Why people when presented with better explanation with more supporting sources still cling to inferior one is a good question.

Also don't know if I understood you correctly but how one can have opinion which one deems wrong? What is surprising in someone thinking that his stance is right until it's proven wrong?


(11-02-2016 12:13 AM)Safewing Wrote:  So while you may not agree I think it is very important to get a theists view. I'm sure too that we won't agree on everything as atheists.

I would say that theist view is something that atheist are familiar with. About second part - atheist obviously have different stances on many issues which is only to be expected when one true link is absence of belief.

(11-02-2016 12:13 AM)Safewing Wrote:  We like to think that we can change our minds when presented with rationale and reason. But I think we need to accept that process while not impossible can be difficult, especially if your big picture ain't that big.

Clinging to one own opinion cause of emotional investment or inability to back of in discussion isn't exactly unknown thing.

As for changing mind - it's far from easy as humans aren't rational actors objectively judging merits of each view. Present pro lifer with sound arguments pro abortion and see how he would still cling to his view that this procedure is about killing "unborn children". You could say that reverse also hold true, but in this case only one side is right and in their case not accepting the drivel is sign of reason.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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11-02-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(10-02-2016 11:58 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Because that is the theory of gravity. I brought it up because I was told to jump out of a window because gravity was just a theory. However, it isn't just a theory, it is also a law.

Facepalm

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11-02-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(10-02-2016 11:58 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 07:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  A scientific law is a mathematical description of behavior and is man-made.
A scientific theory is an explanation of the causes and effects of the behavior based on evidence.


No one mentioned that, did they? Consider
Why are you bringing that up?
Because that is the theory of gravity. I brought it up because I was told to jump out of a window because gravity was just a theory. However, it isn't just a theory, it is also a law.

You still don't understand what a scientific law is. It is a man-made description of an observed regular pattern.

You still don't understand what a scientific theory is. It is a larger construct that explains those observations and predicts effects.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-02-2016, 06:42 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Seriously, why is pops indeed digging deeper and deeper? He just cant seem to stop.

This "law is bigger than theory" fallacy is nothing new, its as old as ...science.
It has been explained -i bet- a million times to a million people being ignorant of this topic. Its not even a topic in dispute. So why not just google that $hit and educate yourself?
I know from my own experience, that sometimes one (me too) just "doesnt get it", but thats the moment when to profit from those who obviously and demonstrably do get it. Get them to explain to you. All one needs is to push away your fucking ego. Its not easy, but it works! Thats how we learn and improve. Thats how we mutually educate each other. Thats how we fucking escaped living in caves.

Its not your fault if you are born stupid, but if you die stupid. So kick your egos a$$ and learn!

What i really dont understand is why pops for example prefers to parade his ignorance in front of an audience which clearly seems to be much better educated than himself, and demonstrably so. Is it ego? The famous human tendency to stick to your arguments, even after them have been demonstrated to be wrong? Intellectual lazyness? Just because!?

It is in fact not that hard to understand that theories are considered to be "on top" of facts. Facs are the measurements which are the foundation of our wider theories that we develop in order to explain the results of those measurements (so to speak). Since science is all about falsifiability, no scientist will claim to have unchangeable "facts", he will claim to have a theory, which is considered to be right until proven wrong (by a new "fact" which will contradict the theory and its predictions). So "gravity" as a cause for "things falling towards a heavy body with 9,81m/s^2, as we measured (= fact)" in case of earth being the body may be still *only* be a theory until the last black hole has evaporated, but it will be the only accepted theory for this phenomenon, because its demonstrably correct, until some new "fact" will falsify it.

Laws....are just the mathematical formulas/descripitions to give measurables for our theories, they arent higher or lower as a theory, they are part of it, they accompany it. And the term "law" is arbitrary, dont even start thinking about jurisdiction please.

Now, how hard is that, really????
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11-02-2016, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2016 06:56 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Quote:Because that is the theory of gravity. I brought it up because I was told to jump out of a window because gravity was just a theory. However, it isn't just a theory, it is also a law.

Gravity being the cause for what is going to happen (your demise). You will accelerate towards earth, and depending on earths mass = theory
You jumping out of a window = experiment
You accelerating until you suddenly and abruptly deccelerate to death (= hit the bottom) = fact/ falisifiable prediction of said theory (well, actually i should have given an impact speed)
You will accelerate with 9,81m/s^2, ignoring air and other minor impacts which are irrelevant to the theory as a whole. v=9,81*t = law
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11-02-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(11-02-2016 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 11:58 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Because that is the theory of gravity. I brought it up because I was told to jump out of a window because gravity was just a theory. However, it isn't just a theory, it is also a law.

You still don't understand what a scientific law is. It is a man-made description of an observed regular pattern.

You still don't understand what a scientific theory is. It is a larger construct that explains those observations and predicts effects.
I thought a law was verified or made up of mathematical equations.

I thought the theories were derived from those equations and other testable hypothesis.

If I'm wrong then fine. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong.

I don't get how a law isn't more concrete than a theory as the law is probable through mathematics, but the theory is speculation of sorts past that verifiable mathematical equation.

I'm open to learn, and learn daily. Even here.

I assure you that ego has little to nothing to do with it. I don't deny that many here have a better grasp on the scientific method than I do. But then people say things like nails came about through science, and while no doubt there was trial and error involved, "science" as it is known today isn't exactly a correct description. If it is then I have and do use science myself to distinguish my own inner workings. But, of course, people here claim that is not true either.

In short; I am eager to learn truth, regardless of it's origins, and am very open to new data that can change my perspective. And others should be to.

I can think of things and fields and ways that people here can teach me, but due to ego, I'm certain most here feel as if I have nothing to offer them, as if I am infantile in all aspects of life and experience.

What I am saying is that we can learn from one another in an ideal scenario, but ego indeed seems to impede that process.

I am slow to admit when I am wrong. But I do eventually admit it. It was overly simplifying scientific theory calling it simply a guess, and a low blow to the scientific community. I knew this to begin with but felt it was needed to convey a point.

So yes perhaps some sort of pride was involved.

The difference is that on retrospect and with careful explanation by others and my own minimal research I am capable of admitting when I was wrong...and I was.

Peace
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11-02-2016, 11:24 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
I dont know about the other members of this forum, but i appreciate your honesty, i really do.
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11-02-2016, 11:33 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(11-02-2016 11:24 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I dont know about the other members of this forum, but i appreciate your honesty, i really do.

I appreciate his absence, however brief it may be Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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