Why do theists come to this forum?
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16-02-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 11:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  3. No catalyst - no singularity - no Big Bang.

Why are you going against science--yet again? Wikipedia's entry begins, "The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe..." [emphasis mine]

It is... that doesn't make it absolute true. So why would you hold something entirely certain as if it's the only possible option if it's not known to that degree... That's the point of science's method to keep poking and prodding to see how likely and provable a claim can be.

Not just settling and say THIS is the ONLY way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-02-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 11:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  3. No catalyst - no singularity - no Big Bang.

Why are you going against science--yet again? Wikipedia's entry begins, "The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe..." [emphasis mine]

There are other hypotheses. That's the way science works. Drinking Beverage

Stop pretending you understand science. You don't.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2016 10:10 AM by Chas.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 12:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Street level common fallcy, Fundie theists make, all the time
Fallacy of the "excluded middle" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma )
You have in no way demonstrated the choices are limited to those two. Logic is necessary, but not sufficient, and in that you are also committing the fallacy of the false analogy. The ultimate nature of Reality has been proven to be non-intuitive, (Relativity, Uncertainty, math (tensors) of Dirac. You have no EVIDENCE for any of your "ultimate claims". They are meaningless drivel, based on unsupported (and in your case, unrecognized) assumptions.

Then you will tell us all what the middle is that I've excluded. It was at that time in pre-history your choice of a catalytic action within the singularity or an outside force or a combination of the two. Which alternative have I missed?

Your dichotomy was already shown to be false; other alternatives have been shown.

For instance, Hawking wrote "there was in fact no singularity at the beginning of the universe" in A Brief History of Time.
That book was published in 1988; do try to keep up.

Quote:Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves. Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

No one here fears that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Then you will tell us all what the middle is that I've excluded. It was at that time in pre-history your choice of a catalytic action within the singularity or an outside force or a combination of the two. Which alternative have I missed?

Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves. Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

Even if we accept your choices, there is nothing that leads to a god.

In past eras of history:

Thunder and lightning were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.
Earthquakes and floods were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.
Famine, drought and disease were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.

The Big Bang was caused by gods... (what do you think will happen next?)

Your god-of-the-gaps has to keep squeezing into smaller and smaller holes.

Cite one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out.

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16-02-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves. Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

Please provide evidence that everyone here fears what you claim. Even though I thoroughly expect you to dodge the question, whine, and say that it is up to us to prove your assertion wrong. Once again, please present your evidence or shut up. That is your MO after all.

The only thing you have offered is a bunch of garbage wrapped in toilet paper and claim it is a ribeye steak. The only thing that one can admit from reading your drivel is that you fail to understand even the most basic fundamental ideas.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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16-02-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
OK, here's my take, apropos the OP.

They come to save our non-existent souls. Well-meaning but wrong and/or clueless.

They come to annoy us. Wrong and obnoxious. Sick combination.

You pathetic religious pecker-heads know who you are. There's a dichotomy that needs to possibly be expanded...but this covers most of 'em.
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17-02-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why are you going against science--yet again? Wikipedia's entry begins, "The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe..." [emphasis mine]

There are other hypotheses. That's the way science works. Drinking Beverage

Stop pretending you understand science. You don't.

Thanks for shifting the goal posts, however, you frequently assault my positions and opinions for going contrary to mainstream science. Please explain your top three reasons for repudiating Big Bang cosmology, and why this opinion is preferable to that of most (nearly all) modern cosmologists.

Thank you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2016, 10:33 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 09:21 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Then you will tell us all what the middle is that I've excluded. It was at that time in pre-history your choice of a catalytic action within the singularity or an outside force or a combination of the two. Which alternative have I missed?

Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves. Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

Even if we accept your choices, there is nothing that leads to a god.

In past eras of history:

Thunder and lightning were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.
Earthquakes and floods were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.
Famine, drought and disease were caused by gods... until science proved otherwise.

The Big Bang was caused by gods... (what do you think will happen next?)

Your god-of-the-gaps has to keep squeezing into smaller and smaller holes.

Cite one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out.

You are skirting the borders of the real issue. It isn't "God is the gap of the Big Bang". Rather, I question your lack of questioning as to where the substance of the universe came from. Let's say there was no Bang and all was always here. Then Conservation of Matter doesn't hold, which confounds Chas. Let's say you say, "Doesn't matter, reality just is." Now all you need to do is explain how you know empirically that only empirical matter is here (circular) or how you use empirical observations to conclude that empirical matter is the true reality (circular).

With lightning and thunder, we can go that God of the gaps is a false preposition. What is your logical or scientific justification for not putting God in the gap of creation of all matter? I'm interested in your deductive proof, not your philosophy here.

Or if you like, I've refuted your logic here, refute mine.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 09:38 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves. Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

Please provide evidence that everyone here fears what you claim. Even though I thoroughly expect you to dodge the question, whine, and say that it is up to us to prove your assertion wrong. Once again, please present your evidence or shut up. That is your MO after all.

The only thing you have offered is a bunch of garbage wrapped in toilet paper and claim it is a ribeye steak. The only thing that one can admit from reading your drivel is that you fail to understand even the most basic fundamental ideas.

1. If you were unafraid, your tone throughout this e-mail would be much different.

2. See my signature line; your fear is not an excuse, sir.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-02-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  There are other hypotheses. That's the way science works. Drinking Beverage

Stop pretending you understand science. You don't.

Thanks for shifting the goal posts, however, you frequently assault my positions and opinions for going contrary to mainstream science. Please explain your top three reasons for repudiating Big Bang cosmology, and why this opinion is preferable to that of most (nearly all) modern cosmologists.

Thank you.

How do you come to view propositions this way? Where did he indicate he is repudiating the idea? Our human minds don't only work in some absolute YES/NO binary code manner Q.

You can accept concepts as they stand to best current status at this point and accept potential alternatives are wide ranging. One can accept the idea but it doesn't mean they have to ONLY accept it to the most ultimate certainty one can accept a position on. Do you really think humans aren't capable of this? Is this how you think you are only capable of thinking?

Beyond anything, this still goes back to your false dichotomy. Even if you think HA that's silly nobody can say the universe always existed... ignoring how some religious views always have. It's clear there are more views than your proclaimed one or the other option. So why do you think that idea is valid despite the variables?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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