Why do theists come to this forum?
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17-02-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let's say there was no Bang and all was always here.
No. Let's say you provide an example to my question, or admit that science has consistently disproved religion.

(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  With lightning and thunder, we can go that God of the gaps is a false preposition. What is your logical or scientific justification for not putting God in the gap of creation of all matter? I'm interested in your deductive proof, not your philosophy here.
What god? My justification is that there is no scientific evidence for any god. Define a god, establish a theory, show evidence, outline potential falsification. Your biblical god has no more justification than any of the other tens of thousands of gods that men have created.

To paraphrase one of JT Eberhard's comments: The most you can say is that science has not found the answer, YET. However if we look back at all the questions science has answered, and all the questions religion hasn't answered, I think I'll put my trust in science.

(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Or if you like, I've refuted your logic here, refute mine.
The god-of-the-gaps argument I gave refutes your previous point, the one I quoted. You have offered no logic in this reply, only hedged and dodged. You have refuted nothing. You have attempted to change the subject. You have tried to shift the burden of proof. You have deliberately avoided answering the question I posed.

I reiterate:

Can you provide one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out?

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17-02-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are skirting the borders of the real issue. It isn't "God is the gap of the Big Bang". Rather, I question your lack of questioning as to where the substance of the universe came from. Let's say there was no Bang and all was always here.

The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with where the matter in the universe came from. It makes absolutely no claims on how the singilarity came to be, and says next to nothing about the singularity itself.

The theory deals only with the conditions immediately following the singularity.

Quote:Then Conservation of Matter doesn't hold

This does not follow.

Quote:Let's say you say, "Doesn't matter, reality just is."

As you do with your god, yes.

You seem to be under the impression that positing a creator somehow enables you to avoid the fact that, in the end, the only answer you're ever going to get is "because". It doesn't. It just kicks the can a little farther down the road.

Quote:Now all you need to do is explain how you know empirically that only empirical matter is here (circular) or how you use empirical observations to conclude that empirical matter is the true reality (circular).

Neither of these statements parse. You don't seem to understand what "empirical" means. "Empirical matter" is a nonsense phrase. "True reality" is a meaningless non-definition.

Ask an incoherent question...

Quote:With lightning and thunder, we can go that God of the gaps is a false preposition. What is your logical or scientific justification for not putting God in the gap of creation of all matter?

So you are explicitly endorsing god-of-the-gaps reasoning here? I must admit, it's a bold move, but I am doubtful of its chances of success.

Quote:Or if you like, I've refuted your logic here, refute mine.

You don't have any.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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19-02-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 10:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 10:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Thanks for shifting the goal posts, however, you frequently assault my positions and opinions for going contrary to mainstream science. Please explain your top three reasons for repudiating Big Bang cosmology, and why this opinion is preferable to that of most (nearly all) modern cosmologists.

Thank you.

How do you come to view propositions this way? Where did he indicate he is repudiating the idea? Our human minds don't only work in some absolute YES/NO binary code manner Q.

You can accept concepts as they stand to best current status at this point and accept potential alternatives are wide ranging. One can accept the idea but it doesn't mean they have to ONLY accept it to the most ultimate certainty one can accept a position on. Do you really think humans aren't capable of this? Is this how you think you are only capable of thinking?

Beyond anything, this still goes back to your false dichotomy. Even if you think HA that's silly nobody can say the universe always existed... ignoring how some religious views always have. It's clear there are more views than your proclaimed one or the other option. So why do you think that idea is valid despite the variables?

So you are saying:

1. The Big Bang was not caused by a catalyst inside the singularity.

2. " " by a catalyst outside the singularity.

3. " " by some of both, inside and outside.

Now, when you're done telling me my thinking is too in-the-box, I'll tell you I'm out-of-the-box but have no alternative to these three. I've tried. How about you?

4. .... ?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-02-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 10:54 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let's say there was no Bang and all was always here.
No. Let's say you provide an example to my question, or admit that science has consistently disproved religion.

(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  With lightning and thunder, we can go that God of the gaps is a false preposition. What is your logical or scientific justification for not putting God in the gap of creation of all matter? I'm interested in your deductive proof, not your philosophy here.
What god? My justification is that there is no scientific evidence for any god. Define a god, establish a theory, show evidence, outline potential falsification. Your biblical god has no more justification than any of the other tens of thousands of gods that men have created.

To paraphrase one of JT Eberhard's comments: The most you can say is that science has not found the answer, YET. However if we look back at all the questions science has answered, and all the questions religion hasn't answered, I think I'll put my trust in science.

(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Or if you like, I've refuted your logic here, refute mine.
The god-of-the-gaps argument I gave refutes your previous point, the one I quoted. You have offered no logic in this reply, only hedged and dodged. You have refuted nothing. You have attempted to change the subject. You have tried to shift the burden of proof. You have deliberately avoided answering the question I posed.

I reiterate:

Can you provide one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out?

Can do:

Quote:Can you provide one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out?

God does allow atheists to wallow in their delusions, because there's no way you can know how much Jesus loves you and still say mean, nasty things about God.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-02-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(17-02-2016 11:17 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are skirting the borders of the real issue. It isn't "God is the gap of the Big Bang". Rather, I question your lack of questioning as to where the substance of the universe came from. Let's say there was no Bang and all was always here.

The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with where the matter in the universe came from. It makes absolutely no claims on how the singilarity came to be, and says next to nothing about the singularity itself.

The theory deals only with the conditions immediately following the singularity.

Quote:Then Conservation of Matter doesn't hold

This does not follow.

Quote:Let's say you say, "Doesn't matter, reality just is."

As you do with your god, yes.

You seem to be under the impression that positing a creator somehow enables you to avoid the fact that, in the end, the only answer you're ever going to get is "because". It doesn't. It just kicks the can a little farther down the road.

Quote:Now all you need to do is explain how you know empirically that only empirical matter is here (circular) or how you use empirical observations to conclude that empirical matter is the true reality (circular).

Neither of these statements parse. You don't seem to understand what "empirical" means. "Empirical matter" is a nonsense phrase. "True reality" is a meaningless non-definition.

Ask an incoherent question...

Quote:With lightning and thunder, we can go that God of the gaps is a false preposition. What is your logical or scientific justification for not putting God in the gap of creation of all matter?

So you are explicitly endorsing god-of-the-gaps reasoning here? I must admit, it's a bold move, but I am doubtful of its chances of success.

Quote:Or if you like, I've refuted your logic here, refute mine.

You don't have any.

There's so much wrong with your post it's hard to know where to begin. But you are gilding the lily regarding conservation. Most honest people would admit the troubling nature of having no matter and then some while holding that this law was always in effect. That is a lot of illogic you have there so saying I'm being illogical... is illogical.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-02-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(19-02-2016 12:42 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There's so much wrong with your post it's hard to know where to begin.

Hey, you don't see me complaining with regards to your incoherence, buddy.

(19-02-2016 12:42 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But you are gilding the lily regarding conservation. Most honest people would admit the troubling nature of having no matter and then some while holding that this law was always in effect.

This law is in effect within the space-time continuum.

Without space-time, not only does this law not necessarily hold, it would be impossible to violate it - since, without time, you cannot have "no matter and then some". In fact, the whole question of "before" space-time is, in itself, incoherent - but that's rather beside the point.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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19-02-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(19-02-2016 12:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 10:35 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  How do you come to view propositions this way? Where did he indicate he is repudiating the idea? Our human minds don't only work in some absolute YES/NO binary code manner Q.

You can accept concepts as they stand to best current status at this point and accept potential alternatives are wide ranging. One can accept the idea but it doesn't mean they have to ONLY accept it to the most ultimate certainty one can accept a position on. Do you really think humans aren't capable of this? Is this how you think you are only capable of thinking?

Beyond anything, this still goes back to your false dichotomy. Even if you think HA that's silly nobody can say the universe always existed... ignoring how some religious views always have. It's clear there are more views than your proclaimed one or the other option. So why do you think that idea is valid despite the variables?

So you are saying:

1. The Big Bang was not caused by a catalyst inside the singularity.

2. " " by a catalyst outside the singularity.

3. " " by some of both, inside and outside.

Now, when you're done telling me my thinking is too in-the-box, I'll tell you I'm out-of-the-box but have no alternative to these three. I've tried. How about you?

4. .... ?

4. According to Stephen Hawking, there was no singularity.

Quit pretending you understand science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-02-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(19-02-2016 12:40 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Can you provide one example where the explanation "god did it" has panned out?

God does allow atheists to wallow in their delusions, because there's no way you can know how much Jesus loves you and still say mean, nasty things about God.

Thumbsup We'll just chalk that up in the "NO" column.

So we are switching to jesus and his love? Okey dokey.

Jesus loves me so much, that if I don't love him back, then he will throw me into a lake of eternal fire where I shall wail and gnash my teeth. That's not love.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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19-02-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(19-02-2016 01:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Quit pretending you understand science.

Science and theology.
And philosophy.
And logic.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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19-02-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(19-02-2016 01:27 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(19-02-2016 12:40 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  God does allow atheists to wallow in their delusions, because there's no way you can know how much Jesus loves you and still say mean, nasty things about God.

Thumbsup We'll just chalk that up in the "NO" column.

So we are switching to jesus and his love? Okey dokey.

Jesus loves me so much, that if I don't love him back, then he will throw me into a lake of eternal fire where I shall wail and gnash my teeth. That's not love.

That's special kind of love:

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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