Why do theists come to this forum?
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21-02-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 01:31 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Umm no, not even close:









Any reasonable person will admit that no deity is needed to explain the origin of life.

I already stated that "deity" (though I said "omniscient God") isn't a part of Intelligent Design. I also stated not that it's necessary, but that it's possible. I'm a reasonable person and I admit that no deity is necessary to explain the origin of life. I also admit that Intelligent Design is a valid theory for the origin of life.
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21-02-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 01:54 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  Because I don't see how my being a believer or not has any bearing on anything. If I'm a believer and I tell you that 2+2=4, it's not any more or less true than if I'm an atheist and I say 2+2=4. It's an irrelevant an meaningless distinction to make.

But it does affect the presuppositions underlying your evaluation of arguments and evidence. Not all discussions have the luxury of being limited to undisputed statements of fact.

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21-02-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:00 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I also admit that Intelligent Design is a valid theory for the origin of life.

What evidence supports ID? How could we falsify ID? What predictions has ID made that have been investigated?

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21-02-2016, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2016 02:31 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:00 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I also admit that Intelligent Design is a valid theory for the origin of life.

So much fail, where to begin?

First of all a “theory” in scientific terms has been proven with testable facts repeatedly. ID is at best an unproven hypothesis.

"In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[4] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis').[5] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

Your use of “valid theory” to describe ID is as preposterous or as valid as me saying the FSM is the Creator of all life. Just as unfalsifiable, just as unsupported.

Ramen.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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21-02-2016, 02:22 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:00 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(21-02-2016 01:31 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Umm no, not even close:









Any reasonable person will admit that no deity is needed to explain the origin of life.

I already stated that "deity" (though I said "omniscient God") isn't a part of Intelligent Design. I also stated not that it's necessary, but that it's possible. I'm a reasonable person and I admit that no deity is necessary to explain the origin of life. I also admit that Intelligent Design is a valid theory for the origin of life.

Intelligent design is not falsifiable. That is it's flaw in a nutshell, that makes it an untenable hypothesis. It will never rise to the level of a scientifically valid theory until it becomes falsifiable.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-02-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:00 PM)unfogged Wrote:  ID is not a theory in any meaningful sense. It is, at best, a conjecture. Saying something is a possibility is pretty vacuous when there isn't any evidence that directly supports the idea. All ID boils down to is an elaborate god-of-the-gaps argument.
I actually agree, more-or-less. Even if we knew how life originated, it wouldn't have much bearing on anything so having theories involved in it seems like wasted effort. It's much more useful to try and figure out how to create life ourselves i.e. bio-chemical engineering.
Quote:Consider
I don't see how it could be considered impertinent. It seems to me like a very simple, basic question given the nature of this forum.
It is a simple, basic question, but for me it doesn't have a simple, basic answer. I realize you may see this response as a way to avoid admitting I'm a believer on an atheist forum or that this is a subdued way to say I've lost faith, but that's not what it is. I genuinely don't care enough about the stance to take one. There are good Christians and bad Christians; good atheists and bad atheists. "Christian" or "atheist" doesn't matter, "good" or "bad" does. This is the same response I give to everyone.
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21-02-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
I'm not here to discuss how valid the idea of Intelligent Design is. It's really not important whether or not life was seeded by extraterrestrials. I'm not arguing for it because I believe it, I'm arguing for it because it's a valid possibility and no one here ever wants to admit that.
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21-02-2016, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2016 03:16 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:37 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(21-02-2016 02:00 PM)unfogged Wrote:  ID is not a theory in any meaningful sense. It is, at best, a conjecture. Saying something is a possibility is pretty vacuous when there isn't any evidence that directly supports the idea. All ID boils down to is an elaborate god-of-the-gaps argument.
I actually agree, more-or-less. Even if we knew how life originated, it wouldn't have much bearing on anything so having theories involved in it seems like wasted effort. It's much more useful to try and figure out how to create life ourselves i.e. bio-chemical engineering.

I don't find any attempts to understand things better to be wasted effort. We don't know what effect a new and better theory of how life got started or how the universe came to be as we find it would have. I also don't see it as distinct from trying to figure out how to create life ourselves since knowing how it started might help us along that path and advances along that path might help us to figure out how it happened before.

Quote:
Quote:Consider
I don't see how it could be considered impertinent. It seems to me like a very simple, basic question given the nature of this forum.
It is a simple, basic question, but for me it doesn't have a simple, basic answer. I realize you may see this response as a way to avoid admitting I'm a believer on an atheist forum or that this is a subdued way to say I've lost faith, but that's not what it is. I genuinely don't care enough about the stance to take one. There are good Christians and bad Christians; good atheists and bad atheists. "Christian" or "atheist" doesn't matter, "good" or "bad" does. This is the same response I give to everyone.

I'm having a hard time understanding how you can categorize ID as a "valid theory" and, when pressed, dismiss it as unimportant and do the same thing when asked if you are a believer or not. On the one hand you say you want to engage in discussions but then refuse to support your claims or define your position. i think you are going to find it very difficult to have any useful discussions with anybody.

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21-02-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(16-02-2016 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Note, everyone, how atheists dig their own trenches in arguments but use them as graves.

Pretty much the same thing virtually all believers (I hate the term "theist") do when winning an argument becomes more important than discussing a question. There comes a time when "I don't know" becomes the most accurate (and honorable) answer.

Quote:Why not just admit that I've offered the only logical, plausible alternatives? What is your fear? That if it was an outside catalyst that there is a directing, guiding spirit outside this universe and space/time? Of course that is your fear.

The outside catalyst isn't the problem (it is not in conflict with the idea of a multiverse), it's the claim that it indicates a guiding intelligence. The introduction of a catalyst and the presence of intelligence are in no way related without evidence of a connection.

Do you have such evidence?
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21-02-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(21-02-2016 02:48 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I'm not here to discuss how valid the idea of Intelligent Design is. It's really not important whether or not life was seeded by extraterrestrials. I'm not arguing for it because I believe it, I'm arguing for it because it's a valid possibility and no one here ever wants to admit that.

Not sure if that's a red herring or a strawman or both...

I don't see how you can say it is a valid possibility (or how we got from a valid theory to a valid possibility) when there is no good evidence that there is a possibility that some intelligence was involved or even exists. Not being able to show that something is impossible is not grounds for assuming that it is possible.

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