Why do theists come to this forum?
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24-02-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-02-2016 10:40 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(23-02-2016 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You can replace singularity with "before this matter, space and time". My point stands.

And the point of my logical exercise certainly stands. I mention the alternatives and EVERY time, TTA members accuse me of a god in the gaps BEFORE I say word one about God. "Do the math," there was neither time, space nor matter and then there was... in the beginning.

The Bible makes the outrageous claim that Jesus Christ was there pre-incarnate before Creation. The Bible prophecies fulfilled give credence to the truths of the Bible.
Your logical exercise shows a lack of understanding of the Big Bang.

The Big Bang was the origin of our universe. It was not the origin of matter.

Science cannot yet explain the Singularity event or describe the conditions before that event. In the future science may be able to do both. Better instruments, better theories and understandings. More information. More experiments, more space probes. Knowledge and science build and grow.

IF and I say IF, that happens, it will be due to scientists and technology.

It will not be due to religious texts and stagnating doctrine.

I'll play. The Big Bang was NOT the origin of matter. Please tell all of us what exactly was the origin of matter, and how matter having an origin is not a violation of the Law of Conservation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-02-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-02-2016 01:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-02-2016 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You can replace singularity with "before this matter, space and time". My point stands.

And the point of my logical exercise certainly stands. I mention the alternatives and EVERY time, TTA members accuse me of a god in the gaps BEFORE I say word one about God. "Do the math," there was neither time, space nor matter and then there was... in the beginning.

The Bible makes the outrageous claim that Jesus Christ was there pre-incarnate before Creation. The Bible prophecies fulfilled give credence to the truths of the Bible.

I don't care about your.. but other people said this to me complaint. It's childlike in complaint of saying your sibling gets x and you don't. And you do it without evidence, making it more worthless. Is there evidence of this treatment? You could actually post direct examples of it. Regardless of that since it wouldn't change or mean anything to do so. I wouldn't care true or fake, it's just not relevant.

You don't ever approach a post with JUST an objection. It's not like you go and say "but is that scientific understanding certainly correct?" and leave it at that.. because you do bring your claim to the table. So your but I am merely doing this flaw to your claim is weak across the board.

Btw, before you stated God is life. So God is now somehow existent without matter being existent, yet God is living. That's more non-existing concepts being proclaimed to exist within god. Does God have DNA?

All down to it your point is collection of 66 books & PROPHECY vs mathmatics, physics, formula logic, skepticism, and the formula basis to provide the best understanding of any component we have. So the idea that you're mentioning these alternatives falls in the face of it because your alternative is using a total different concept.

So why you are here, if your evidence is the prophesies, why would you care about anything but demonstrating how the prophesy are actually true?

Okay, but I'm unsure how to demonstrate further than the knowledge you already possess. For example:

Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Why are you not responding to this light? You aren't closed minded regarding anything in particular, are you? Do you consider yourself an open-minded person in general?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-02-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-02-2016 08:22 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(23-02-2016 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You can replace singularity with "before this matter, space and time". My point stands.

And the point of my logical exercise certainly stands. I mention the alternatives and EVERY time, TTA members accuse me of a god in the gaps BEFORE I say word one about God. "Do the math," there was neither time, space nor matter and then there was... in the beginning.

The Bible makes the outrageous claim that Jesus Christ was there pre-incarnate before Creation. The Bible prophecies fulfilled give credence to the truths of the Bible.

This one begat this one. And that one begot this one. And lo and behold somebody said some shit...so just how retarded are you?

Not sure which is more astonishing, your last post or the two likes it has received.

Is that how most scholars talk about the scriptures written by impassioned people over 1,500 years through the sweep of ancient history? It is not.

Lo and behold, God is talking to you. Are you listening at all or have you checked out entirely, because you're "done" and you're an atheist and that's all? Did you not know CS Lewis, Josh McDowell and other of the greatest apologists of the past century were die hard atheists--but open-minded atheists?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-02-2016, 02:41 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-02-2016 01:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't care about your.. but other people said this to me complaint. It's childlike in complaint of saying your sibling gets x and you don't. And you do it without evidence, making it more worthless. Is there evidence of this treatment? You could actually post direct examples of it. Regardless of that since it wouldn't change or mean anything to do so. I wouldn't care true or fake, it's just not relevant.

You don't ever approach a post with JUST an objection. It's not like you go and say "but is that scientific understanding certainly correct?" and leave it at that.. because you do bring your claim to the table. So your but I am merely doing this flaw to your claim is weak across the board.

Btw, before you stated God is life. So God is now somehow existent without matter being existent, yet God is living. That's more non-existing concepts being proclaimed to exist within god. Does God have DNA?

All down to it your point is collection of 66 books & PROPHECY vs mathmatics, physics, formula logic, skepticism, and the formula basis to provide the best understanding of any component we have. So the idea that you're mentioning these alternatives falls in the face of it because your alternative is using a total different concept.

So why you are here, if your evidence is the prophesies, why would you care about anything but demonstrating how the prophesy are actually true?

Okay, but I'm unsure how to demonstrate further than the knowledge you already possess. For example:

Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Why are you not responding to this light? You aren't closed minded regarding anything in particular, are you? Do you consider yourself an open-minded person in general?

So what to these prophecies? I'm not seeing any direct logical connection of this "light" to how these few prophecies demonstrate any absolute claim of truth. How does that confirm absolute truth of the word of God? Can you show something that actually confirms that?

And wouldn't no gentiles be worshiping the Jewish messiah, the Jewish Messiah hasn't accomplished the tasks of the Jewish Messiah yet, so they haven't shown.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-02-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 02:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can communicate coherently. Sometimes I sacrifice a bit of coherence for concision, however, so let me help you:

You have a hole of logic when you/if you (or other TTA members) claim there was somehow always time, space and matter "here".

This remains incoherent. I am unsure of what you are saying. I am still less sure that you understand what is being said to you.

(24-02-2016 02:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'll play. The Big Bang was NOT the origin of matter. Please tell all of us what exactly was the origin of matter, and how matter having an origin is not a violation of the Law of Conservation.

We don't know where matter comes from (it is likely an incoherent question, but that is beside the point). We also have no reason to believe that there needs to be a cause for its existence.

The latter issue has already been addressed. The law of conservation of energy has only been shown to hold - indeed, only can hold - within time. "Before" the universe, there was no time, and therefore no law of conservation.

(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Are you aware of the concept of a "self-fulfilling prophecy", Q?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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24-02-2016, 09:40 PM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2016 09:43 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-02-2016 01:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't care about your.. but other people said this to me complaint. It's childlike in complaint of saying your sibling gets x and you don't. And you do it without evidence, making it more worthless. Is there evidence of this treatment? You could actually post direct examples of it. Regardless of that since it wouldn't change or mean anything to do so. I wouldn't care true or fake, it's just not relevant.

You don't ever approach a post with JUST an objection. It's not like you go and say "but is that scientific understanding certainly correct?" and leave it at that.. because you do bring your claim to the table. So your but I am merely doing this flaw to your claim is weak across the board.

Btw, before you stated God is life. So God is now somehow existent without matter being existent, yet God is living. That's more non-existing concepts being proclaimed to exist within god. Does God have DNA?

All down to it your point is collection of 66 books & PROPHECY vs mathmatics, physics, formula logic, skepticism, and the formula basis to provide the best understanding of any component we have. So the idea that you're mentioning these alternatives falls in the face of it because your alternative is using a total different concept.

So why you are here, if your evidence is the prophesies, why would you care about anything but demonstrating how the prophesy are actually true?

Okay, but I'm unsure how to demonstrate further than the knowledge you already possess. For example:

Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Why are you not responding to this light? You aren't closed minded regarding anything in particular, are you? Do you consider yourself an open-minded person in general?


"Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?"

So you keep saying, here, and in my debate with you. Please quote the Bible where this is prophesied. I'm particularly interested in the "etc" prophesy.

Who is this "Jewish messiah" you mention?
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25-02-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 02:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Okay, but I'm unsure how to demonstrate further than the knowledge you already possess. For example:

Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Why are you not responding to this light? You aren't closed minded regarding anything in particular, are you? Do you consider yourself an open-minded person in general?

So what to these prophecies? I'm not seeing any direct logical connection of this "light" to how these few prophecies demonstrate any absolute claim of truth. How does that confirm absolute truth of the word of God? Can you show something that actually confirms that?

And wouldn't no gentiles be worshiping the Jewish messiah, the Jewish Messiah hasn't accomplished the tasks of the Jewish Messiah yet, so they haven't shown.

Put simply, the Jewish nation is utterly unique. It was prophesied they would go into diaspora, be the intelligentsia AND hated wherever they roamed, then return to their land to make it a Jewish state, 2,000 years after Rome and 2.500 years after the Babylon exile! There is nothing comparable in human history! That is just one of any number of Bible examples!

You are just being contrary. You may have the last word here.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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25-02-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 02:44 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(24-02-2016 02:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can communicate coherently. Sometimes I sacrifice a bit of coherence for concision, however, so let me help you:

You have a hole of logic when you/if you (or other TTA members) claim there was somehow always time, space and matter "here".

This remains incoherent. I am unsure of what you are saying. I am still less sure that you understand what is being said to you.

(24-02-2016 02:31 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'll play. The Big Bang was NOT the origin of matter. Please tell all of us what exactly was the origin of matter, and how matter having an origin is not a violation of the Law of Conservation.

We don't know where matter comes from (it is likely an incoherent question, but that is beside the point). We also have no reason to believe that there needs to be a cause for its existence.

The latter issue has already been addressed. The law of conservation of energy has only been shown to hold - indeed, only can hold - within time. "Before" the universe, there was no time, and therefore no law of conservation.

(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Are you aware of the concept of a "self-fulfilling prophecy", Q?

You are being absolutely ridiculous. "Before" the universe there was no time and no... matter... although it seems to be of "no matter" to you because you WANT to persist in this line of nonsense.

And yes, I know what a self-fulfilling prophecy is, and I will allow you now to explain to me how the Jewish people self-fulfilled prophecy to be both the cream of every nation they were scattered to and hated in every nation they were scattered to... you may have the last word on this matter.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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25-02-2016, 10:11 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-02-2016 09:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(24-02-2016 02:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Okay, but I'm unsure how to demonstrate further than the knowledge you already possess. For example:

Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?

Why are you not responding to this light? You aren't closed minded regarding anything in particular, are you? Do you consider yourself an open-minded person in general?


"Are you unaware the Bible prophesied a return to Israel after a long Jewish diaspora, and that Jerusalem would be divided, and that multitudes worldwide who were Gentiles would worship a Jewish messiah, etc.?"

So you keep saying, here, and in my debate with you. Please quote the Bible where this is prophesied. I'm particularly interested in the "etc" prophesy.

Who is this "Jewish messiah" you mention?

No, Dr. Fulton. My last word on this to you is that you are biblically unlearned, so I can't imagine how you presume to debate the Bible with me. The man on the street who is an agnostic knows many of these prophecies. Google for a second, fulfill the prophecy knowledge you lack, then we can discuss messianic expectation and the mashiach or anointed in Daniel, etc.

Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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25-02-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(25-02-2016 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-02-2016 02:41 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So what to these prophecies? I'm not seeing any direct logical connection of this "light" to how these few prophecies demonstrate any absolute claim of truth. How does that confirm absolute truth of the word of God? Can you show something that actually confirms that?

And wouldn't no gentiles be worshiping the Jewish messiah, the Jewish Messiah hasn't accomplished the tasks of the Jewish Messiah yet, so they haven't shown.

Put simply, the Jewish nation is utterly unique. It was prophesied they would go into diaspora, be the intelligentsia AND hated wherever they roamed, then return to their land to make it a Jewish state, 2,000 years after Rome and 2.500 years after the Babylon exile! There is nothing comparable in human history! That is just one of any number of Bible examples!

You are just being contrary. You may have the last word here.

It's called questioning sir. It's a very simple base thing to do. So it's unique? Okay.. that's not a statement that does anything or means anything. Okay so what? What does that do to answer anything I asked?

Why are you then.. to tell people to go google things?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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