Why do theists come to this forum?
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23-03-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(22-03-2016 01:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 11:17 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I have to ask. How did you become religious? Did you go to some kind of religious recruitment thing as a teen and get sucked in by the fact there were girls to meet there?

I was missionized to by some Christians who were… shall we say… very persistent and highly motivated. They presented their Jesus case to me and pointed me to parts of the old testament which proved their case. I was very impressed. All of the Jewish people I knew were secular and religiously uneducated, so it really resonated with me when the Christians insisted that Jews never read their own bible to see these prophecies.

I started learning about Christianity, but it felt weird, and foreign, and it just felt like a load of bullshit. I decided to find out for myself if Jesus was the Jewish messiah. I wanted Jesus to be the messiah, but I needed to understand why for 2,000 years, the Jewish community just doesn’t see it. Is it really because they’ve never read their own book? Were they really just being stubborn as the Christians were insisting?

I found myself in a black-hat Jewish community asking questions. I was encouraged to ask, I was encouraged to challenge and call bullshit, and I love calling bullshit. I fell in love with the religion, with the way they study, with their honesty and integrity about their understanding of their own text, and with the fact that Judaism isn’t a faith thing at all. It’s not about believing and worshiping G-d. It’s about living an awesome life and eking out as much pleasure in this world as you possibly can.

… and the girls were a nice perk, too.

1. Yes and no--the stubborn nature of the Jewish people is mentioned in Tanakh, however, if you think about it, probably the same per capita of Jews who trust Jesus and become born again is the same per capita of Gentiles who do so.

2. So, what happened? Are you a Lubavitcher now? Orthodox? Conservative? Revisionist? Where did you wind up with your black hat studies?

Quote:...with the fact that Judaism isn’t a faith thing at all. It’s not about believing and worshiping G-d

I know many Jews who'd be inclined to disbelieve you on this. Faith is a good synonym for trust, and I know many Jews who trust God, love God, believe God, and go to shul to WORSHIP God.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-03-2016, 11:02 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 01:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry Mr. Q. Your childish nonsense is refuted by your savior.

Matthew 12:39 "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah".

(BTW, the HIGHEST level Christianity achieves according to it's mystics, is the very opposite of what you say. Someday read St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul".)

But what do I know. I have a devil. Rolleyes

You do have a demon, since you remain unable to type "Jesus is Lord". Go ahead and do so now at the privacy of your keyboard without posting here at TTA for your public embarrassment.

The "sign of the prophet Jonah" was that Jonah died and resurrected in the fish. Jesus died and resurrected. Not everyone saw His resurrection. Now you have the choice to trust the testimonies of those persons who did.

But Bucky has taught me things and done "good" deeds for humankind such as others and I.

I thought your point of distinction on how it was KNOWN by the jewish folk at the time Jesus couldn't possibly be a possessed or evil figure because he was doing positive deeds and that demons only trick and lie. How come you don't get to apply that full circle but only in the instances you think it fits? How come?

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23-03-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not special pleading for to discover, over and again, that every one of hundreds of objections skeptics have is specifically, logically addressed in the Bible.

Save the complete lack of evidence that any of it actually happened.

(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  atheists still have no reason to reject God FOREVER that is logical, since they:

1. Have no evidence God doesn't exist

2. Know "darn well" that the overwhelming majority of people think atheists are stunted spiritually since God's existence is self-evident to them

Neither of these are in any way evidence that a god exists.

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23-03-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 12:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not special pleading for to discover, over and again, that every one of hundreds of objections skeptics have is specifically, logically addressed in the Bible.

Save the complete lack of evidence that any of it actually happened.

(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  atheists still have no reason to reject God FOREVER that is logical, since they:

1. Have no evidence God doesn't exist

2. Know "darn well" that the overwhelming majority of people think atheists are stunted spiritually since God's existence is self-evident to them

Neither of these are in any way evidence that a god exists.

I the evidence against god is overwhelming. Look at Seth Andrews for example. He was a believer and quite devout as I understand it, yet he turned away from it after he looked at the evidence. The number of non-religious is growing from numbers of people turning away from the religion their parents forced them into. The same can not be said for religion. Their numbers only grow from producing children and forcing them in to it.
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23-03-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 01:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I was missionized to by some Christians who were… shall we say… very persistent and highly motivated. They presented their Jesus case to me and pointed me to parts of the old testament which proved their case. I was very impressed. All of the Jewish people I knew were secular and religiously uneducated, so it really resonated with me when the Christians insisted that Jews never read their own bible to see these prophecies.

I started learning about Christianity, but it felt weird, and foreign, and it just felt like a load of bullshit. I decided to find out for myself if Jesus was the Jewish messiah. I wanted Jesus to be the messiah, but I needed to understand why for 2,000 years, the Jewish community just doesn’t see it. Is it really because they’ve never read their own book? Were they really just being stubborn as the Christians were insisting?

I found myself in a black-hat Jewish community asking questions. I was encouraged to ask, I was encouraged to challenge and call bullshit, and I love calling bullshit. I fell in love with the religion, with the way they study, with their honesty and integrity about their understanding of their own text, and with the fact that Judaism isn’t a faith thing at all. It’s not about believing and worshiping G-d. It’s about living an awesome life and eking out as much pleasure in this world as you possibly can.

… and the girls were a nice perk, too.

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Yes and no--the stubborn nature of the Jewish people is mentioned in Tanakh, however, if you think about it, probably the same per capita of Jews who trust Jesus and become born again is the same per capita of Gentiles who do so.

I'm sure there is some good data out there that shows the trend (or lack thereof) of Jews converting to Christianity, but I'm not aware of those sources. Pew did a recent study on Jews, so you might have some luck looking there.

What is known is that worldwide, there are about 350,000 people who identify as messianic Jews, and about 14.2 million Jews worldwide. Assuming both numbers are reporting actual Jews (people considered Jewish according to Jewish law), then only about 2.5% of Jews are also Christian.

Of the 2.5%, those who chose that path, the majority are not from homes that are strongly connected to the Jewish community, and none of them are from orthodox homes (to be fair, there is one guy, but he suffers from an obvious mental defect and his "orthodoxy" is spotty at best.)

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. So, what happened? Are you a Lubavitcher now? Orthodox? Conservative? Revisionist? Where did you wind up with your black hat studies?

I'm so sorry, but I don't feel quite comfortable identifying my specific Jewish community on such a public forum, but at the very least, it can be said that I generally lean in the orthodox direction.

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 01:03 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...with the fact that Judaism isn’t a faith thing at all. It’s not about believing and worshiping G-d
I know many Jews who'd be inclined to disbelieve you on this. Faith is a good synonym for trust, and I know many Jews who trust God, love God, believe God, and go to shul to WORSHIP God.

I question the education levels of the Jews in your circles, but okay... I'm sure there are authentic Jews who would disagree with me. That's okay.

I didn't say Jews can't believe in G-d. I said it's not the main idea of the religion. Many Jews pray, give thanks to G-d, and generally feel a connection to a higher power. -It's just that doing this is a choice, not a requirement. Jews don't think that they're going to hell for failing to believe.

The Torah isn't a book about how to worship G-d. It's a book about how humans (Jewish humans) should live their lives in this physical world. It says "don't worship idols," but it doesn't say "you must worship G-d or you will go to hell!" (It's worth noting that Jews are required to treat G-d with respect, but that is not the same as being required to actively worship or even to believe in G-d without having been convinced of G-d's existence.)

Someone can be a good Jew by doing mitzvot (deeds) and have serious doubts about the existence of G-d. This is theologically possible. The person would still be considered to be a good Jew.
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23-03-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 03:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  The Torah isn't a book about how to worship G-d. It's a book about how humans (Jewish humans) should live their lives in this physical world.
To make covenants with God of Israel and live your life in this world according to God's laws = to love and to worship God of Israel.
(23-03-2016 03:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Someone can be a good Jew by doing mitzvot (deeds) and have serious doubts about the existence of G-d. This is theologically possible. The person would still be considered to be a good Jew.
I can agree with this.

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23-03-2016, 04:12 PM
Why do theists come to this forum?
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24-03-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 12:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's not special pleading for to discover, over and again, that every one of hundreds of objections skeptics have is specifically, logically addressed in the Bible.

Save the complete lack of evidence that any of it actually happened.

(23-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  atheists still have no reason to reject God FOREVER that is logical, since they:

1. Have no evidence God doesn't exist

2. Know "darn well" that the overwhelming majority of people think atheists are stunted spiritually since God's existence is self-evident to them

Neither of these are in any way evidence that a god exists.

How you sound self-defensive:

Quote:Save the complete lack of evidence that any of it actually happened.

Logic dictates that something significant happened to motivate the authors and the followers and the admiration for Christ since:

* much of the text is taken for beautiful and profound by most

* many people, even non-Christians, testify to Jesus's self-actualization and loving nature

* I've written elsewhere about the reasons why the Jewish people did not protest the NT scriptures and their events--since they happened

There IS evidence supporting the Bible in teleology, cosmology, prophecy, changed lives, etc.

But you are coming off as over-reductionist, and self-defensive.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 11:02 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:51 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You do have a demon, since you remain unable to type "Jesus is Lord". Go ahead and do so now at the privacy of your keyboard without posting here at TTA for your public embarrassment.

The "sign of the prophet Jonah" was that Jonah died and resurrected in the fish. Jesus died and resurrected. Not everyone saw His resurrection. Now you have the choice to trust the testimonies of those persons who did.

But Bucky has taught me things and done "good" deeds for humankind such as others and I.

I thought your point of distinction on how it was KNOWN by the jewish folk at the time Jesus couldn't possibly be a possessed or evil figure because he was doing positive deeds and that demons only trick and lie. How come you don't get to apply that full circle but only in the instances you think it fits? How come?

Um, if Bucky was filled with the Spirit instead, He would testify. How many times have I told you that is the distinction and benchmark?

Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

And the "obvious good things" Jesus did included healing the blind, the deaf and mutes--indeed, this was happening in the moment the Pharisees accused Him of being Satanic--because they could not say He was a charlatan and they had to say something.

Adolph Hitler loved his dogs--cared about his ideals--taught people strength--gave Germans "Volkswagens" and "leisure holidays from work"--emphasized pastoral traditions--but was not Spirit-filled.

Bucky may be a nice person--in person--might have a beer or two with me and talk baseball, even Bucky Ball--but he is LITERALLY unable to even type "Jesus is Lord" because he has sold out to darkness. But he can still come back from the brink!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-03-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(23-03-2016 03:00 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Yes and no--the stubborn nature of the Jewish people is mentioned in Tanakh, however, if you think about it, probably the same per capita of Jews who trust Jesus and become born again is the same per capita of Gentiles who do so.

I'm sure there is some good data out there that shows the trend (or lack thereof) of Jews converting to Christianity, but I'm not aware of those sources. Pew did a recent study on Jews, so you might have some luck looking there.

What is known is that worldwide, there are about 350,000 people who identify as messianic Jews, and about 14.2 million Jews worldwide. Assuming both numbers are reporting actual Jews (people considered Jewish according to Jewish law), then only about 2.5% of Jews are also Christian.

Of the 2.5%, those who chose that path, the majority are not from homes that are strongly connected to the Jewish community, and none of them are from orthodox homes (to be fair, there is one guy, but he suffers from an obvious mental defect and his "orthodoxy" is spotty at best.)

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. So, what happened? Are you a Lubavitcher now? Orthodox? Conservative? Revisionist? Where did you wind up with your black hat studies?

I'm so sorry, but I don't feel quite comfortable identifying my specific Jewish community on such a public forum, but at the very least, it can be said that I generally lean in the orthodox direction.

(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I know many Jews who'd be inclined to disbelieve you on this. Faith is a good synonym for trust, and I know many Jews who trust God, love God, believe God, and go to shul to WORSHIP God.

I question the education levels of the Jews in your circles, but okay... I'm sure there are authentic Jews who would disagree with me. That's okay.

I didn't say Jews can't believe in G-d. I said it's not the main idea of the religion. Many Jews pray, give thanks to G-d, and generally feel a connection to a higher power. -It's just that doing this is a choice, not a requirement. Jews don't think that they're going to hell for failing to believe.

The Torah isn't a book about how to worship G-d. It's a book about how humans (Jewish humans) should live their lives in this physical world. It says "don't worship idols," but it doesn't say "you must worship G-d or you will go to hell!" (It's worth noting that Jews are required to treat G-d with respect, but that is not the same as being required to actively worship or even to believe in G-d without having been convinced of G-d's existence.)

Someone can be a good Jew by doing mitzvot (deeds) and have serious doubts about the existence of G-d. This is theologically possible. The person would still be considered to be a good Jew.

1. Most of worshipping God is just... worship. Not "I worship you to not go to Hell." That is true for Jews, and for Christians.

2. Since you won't self-identify, I may need to assume you are a Lubavitcher. I'm aware of their tactics. You'd quoted Rebbe Singer--he believes--as does his community--that he can do whatever he needs to for Jews to deconvert away from Christ--even to lie--even though I find lying is prohibited in the Decalogue. And before you protest, understand that every non-Lubavitcher Jewish person I've ever interacted on forums was QUICK to say, "I'm Reform" or "I'm Conservative" or whatever.

3. There ARE quite a number of Orthodox who convert, and who have converted. Many are secret believers. I remember one fellow witnessing to me--in a church--long white beard and filled with Talmudic wisdom and all. He said to me, "I buried my father and my grandfather and watched them go to Hell, and said nothing because I was afraid. Believe in Y'shua! Don't be afraid!"

Other Orthodox and those similarly styled got saved, left the shtetl, and are counted among the ranks of the all-time great apologists and theologians. An internet search on Messianic theologians is revealing.

And finally, 2.5% doesn't faze me. I doubt if 2.5% of the goyim--I mean Gentiles--I meet who identify as "Christian" know what it means, can explain the simple gospel, etc.

Had you heard that Messianics estimate that 1/3 of those who died in Shoah were Messianic? When Hitler pressed down and oppressed the people via the Nuremburg laws and etc. German Jewry, who were quite assimilated, began to hold Shabbos services in their homes, study Torah, and a revival occurred. As this happened, revived Tanakh study and interaction with Gentiles led to many Messianic conversions. Many went into the ovens with the Shema on their lips but it was said many others went saying "Mashiach will deliver!" Hallejujah.

PS. I'm a bit shocked when you write statements like "the Torah isn't a book about how to worship God." Entire books of Torah prescribe EXACTLY the Temple service, liturgical worship, emphasize daily and constant meditation on God's Word, extol people to be holy unto God--I mean, soon you tell me the Sabbath is a day of rest, but it's not like the Jewish people were supposed to go to shul on Shabbat!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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