Why do theists come to this forum?
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28-03-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(24-03-2016 09:18 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 07:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Bucky may be a nice person--in person--might have a beer or two with me and talk baseball, even Bucky Ball--but he is LITERALLY unable to even type "Jesus is Lord" because he has sold out to darkness. But he can still come back from the brink!

Isn't it obvious that Bucky is messing with you? I have no feelings (good or bad) toward Bucky, but that's obvious.

I told BB I'll leave TTA forever--and not come back under a different avatar, too, if he does it, once.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-03-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(25-03-2016 11:32 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 07:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Since you won't self-identify, I may need to assume you are a Lubavitcher. I'm aware of their tactics. You'd quoted Rebbe Singer--he believes--as does his community--that he can do whatever he needs to for Jews to deconvert away from Christ--even to lie--even though I find lying is prohibited in the Decalogue. And before you protest, understand that every non-Lubavitcher Jewish person I've ever interacted on forums was QUICK to say, "I'm Reform" or "I'm Conservative" or whatever.

I don’t self-identify because the Jewish community is small and the observant circles are even smaller. To me, this is a matter of personal safety, and I choose not to leave an obvious trail of breadcrumbs to my front door. I had considered sending you a PM to let you know my specific community, but you seem to content with the diagnoses you made.

Rabbi Singer is not Lubavitch. The term “Rebbe” is generally used to refer… Oh, never mind.

I just want to say this one thing about Rabbi Singer. It was the Christians who crossed onto our turf. Our counter missionary efforts are a direct response to Christians dressing up as Jews and evangelizing to our people. We don't go to you guys... you guys come to us, and yes, we will defend our views when you do that.

(24-03-2016 07:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. There ARE quite a number of Orthodox who convert, and who have converted. Many are secret believers. I remember one fellow witnessing to me--in a church--long white beard and filled with Talmudic wisdom and all. He said to me, "I buried my father and my grandfather and watched them go to Hell, and said nothing because I was afraid. Believe in Y'shua! Don't be afraid!"

How come these “orthodox” never surface? Ever. I mean… NEVER. EVER.

Oh, cause they’re secret Christians and they're scared about what we'll think. Why are they so scared? If according to Christianity, they’ve made this amazing new discovery, shouldn’t they be shouting it from the rooftops? Shouldn’t they be trying to “spread the good news?” We don’t even hear people make subtle insinuations. The people you claim are clamoring among us in secret don’t even try to get the conversation started.

(24-03-2016 07:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Other Orthodox and those similarly styled got saved, left the shtetl, and are counted among the ranks of the all-time great apologists and theologians. An internet search on Messianic theologians is revealing.

I did do a Google search on “Messianic theologians” and at least on the first result page, I didn’t find a single name that I could investigate. Who are these orthodox individuals? I want to talk to them. Link me to their information if I can’t speak directly to them.

(24-03-2016 07:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Had you heard that Messianics estimate that 1/3 of those who died in Shoah were Messianic? When Hitler pressed down and oppressed the people via the Nuremburg laws and etc. German Jewry, who were quite assimilated, began to hold Shabbos services in their homes, study Torah, and a revival occurred. As this happened, revived Tanakh study and interaction with Gentiles led to many Messianic conversions. Many went into the ovens with the Shema on their lips but it was said many others went saying "Mashiach will deliver!" Hallejujah.

Interesting. Can you link me to that data? I would consider the Holocaust Museum to be a very reliable source if you can get data from them.

And I’m sure you’re referring to actual Jews, raised in actual Judaism and not the poor Christians who got caught up in this because they came from assimilated families and happen to have partial Jewish blood running through their veins. We already know about those people, and they were raised Christian and Christianity was all they knew.

We can take all of your recent posts and all of mine, and we can derive your base argument that NO Orthodox or learned Jew would EVER become a Christian. I would think that even TTAtheists would see your folly and comment, since you are saying that the very religious people only use logic in their decisions. Dodgy

Paul was very learned and wrote 2/3 of the NT. Scholars agree his koine was articulate, his knowledge deep. He would be one example.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-03-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 11:48 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Q, I think you've been hoodwinked. I think the "Orthodox" person you met adopted his Jewishy appearance after deciding to be Christian.

There are no Christian Jews in Orthodoxy. If any are really hiding in our midst, then I'd suspect they were raised reformed and adopted Orthodxy to try to bolster the Jewish street-cred.

But they won't pass the sniff test to actual learned Jews.

I see. There are many hundreds of thousands of secret Christians among Muslim, Hindu and other populations, because they fear reprisals, but no Orthodox Jew has anything to fear (like having their family sit shiva for them and remove all contact with them). Not.

Nor is it even remotely possible, in your humble estimation, having grown up Reform (?) and now, later in life, getting more interested--like the false Orthodox you wrote about... c'mon. Be consistent. Use your brain and a level playing field. I ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT AN ORTHODOX WHO BURIED HIS FATHER AND GRANDFATHER WHO WERE ORTHODOX REBBES and had a testimony about being a secret believer. A NUMBER OF NEW TESTAMENT contributors were in the same state as secret believers, too.

I know you said that. It's just that I don't trust you to know the difference between someone who was authentically raised observant and someone who only claims it.
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28-03-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 09:18 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Isn't it obvious that Bucky is messing with you? I have no feelings (good or bad) toward Bucky, but that's obvious.

I told BB I'll leave TTA forever--and not come back under a different avatar, too, if he does it, once.

And I agree with you that Bucky must have a fucken demon 'cos if you'd asked me I'd have typed it and posted it in 3 seconds flat, and then when you totally failed to leave I could at least remind you in the future that you with your so called Christian morals were explicitly a lying weasel, as well as all your other charming qualities of assholery.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-03-2016, 01:34 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
He actually doesnt mind being a lying weasel at all:
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28-03-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-03-2016 11:32 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I don’t self-identify because the Jewish community is small and the observant circles are even smaller. To me, this is a matter of personal safety, and I choose not to leave an obvious trail of breadcrumbs to my front door. I had considered sending you a PM to let you know my specific community, but you seem to content with the diagnoses you made.

Rabbi Singer is not Lubavitch. The term “Rebbe” is generally used to refer… Oh, never mind.

I just want to say this one thing about Rabbi Singer. It was the Christians who crossed onto our turf. Our counter missionary efforts are a direct response to Christians dressing up as Jews and evangelizing to our people. We don't go to you guys... you guys come to us, and yes, we will defend our views when you do that.


How come these “orthodox” never surface? Ever. I mean… NEVER. EVER.

Oh, cause they’re secret Christians and they're scared about what we'll think. Why are they so scared? If according to Christianity, they’ve made this amazing new discovery, shouldn’t they be shouting it from the rooftops? Shouldn’t they be trying to “spread the good news?” We don’t even hear people make subtle insinuations. The people you claim are clamoring among us in secret don’t even try to get the conversation started.


I did do a Google search on “Messianic theologians” and at least on the first result page, I didn’t find a single name that I could investigate. Who are these orthodox individuals? I want to talk to them. Link me to their information if I can’t speak directly to them.


Interesting. Can you link me to that data? I would consider the Holocaust Museum to be a very reliable source if you can get data from them.

And I’m sure you’re referring to actual Jews, raised in actual Judaism and not the poor Christians who got caught up in this because they came from assimilated families and happen to have partial Jewish blood running through their veins. We already know about those people, and they were raised Christian and Christianity was all they knew.

We can take all of your recent posts and all of mine, and we can derive your base argument that NO Orthodox or learned Jew would EVER become a Christian. I would think that even TTAtheists would see your folly and comment, since you are saying that the very religious people only use logic in their decisions. Dodgy

Paul was very learned and wrote 2/3 of the NT. Scholars agree his koine was articulate, his knowledge deep. He would be one example.

First, this is really important and then I will respond to your other comments. Paul was a putz. He couldn't read Hebrew.

Now for your other comments:

Let me clarify my base argument since there appears to be confusion. I would never claim that it's impossible for someone to have been raised orthodox and still worship Jesus. I've stated in a previous post that I've heard of someone who did. It's just that he has a mental deficiency. After thinking about it, I've actually met someone online who I sincerely believe was raised quasi orthodox, and he told me point blank that he has a personality disorder.

We've got people like the late Jhan Moskowitz of Jews for Jesus who claimed to have been raised orthodox, but then like many other claimants, he backed off when he couldn't substantiate it.

It has been my experience that messianic Jews who claim orthodox backgrounds have very limited exposure (at best) to authentic orthodox teachings. I've personally met messianic Jews who claimed to be from Orthodox backgrounds but couldn't tell me basic concepts of living a Torah observant lifestyle. Their motives for claiming orthodoxy seem to be to bolster the authenticity of their Judaic backgrounds in an effort to lend credibility to their Christian message.

For some reason Christians really want Jewish approval.

I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus.

My experience is that messianics sugar-coat their upbringing because they have an axe to grind. Change my mind by providing me with actual profiles from learned Jewish people who believe in Yushke, and whose backgrounds can be verified by other observant Jews. I promise, it'll be nothing more invasive than a shidduch call.

Quote:Nor is it even remotely possible, in your humble estimation, having grown up Reform (?) and now, later in life, getting more interested--like the false Orthodox you wrote about... c'mon. Be consistent. Use your brain and a level playing field. I ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT AN ORTHODOX WHO BURIED HIS FATHER AND GRANDFATHER WHO WERE ORTHODOX REBBES and had a testimony about being a secret believer. A NUMBER OF NEW TESTAMENT contributors were in the same state as secret believers, too.

Isn't it nice when people are honest about their backgrounds? It gives you the chance to evaluate where they're coming from. I stated that I was raised Reform because I was raised Reform. I don't feel the need to lie about my upbringing to try to sway a person's impression of my knowledge in my favor.

Did you mean that your friend buried two rabbis or two rebbes (may Hashem rest their souls).
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28-03-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 01:34 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  He actually doesnt mind being a lying weasel at all:

Consider

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-03-2016, 02:08 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus.

And diddled the plunket on Thursdays too! With vergads *and* wombats.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-03-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 02:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus.

And diddled the plunket on Thursdays too! With vergads *and* wombats.

Exactly! Thumbsup
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28-03-2016, 02:26 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus. [...]

Gee whiz... I hope I never have to play you at Scrabble. Undecided

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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