Why do theists come to this forum?
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28-03-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 02:26 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus. [...]

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29-03-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 09:56 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see. There are many hundreds of thousands of secret Christians among Muslim, Hindu and other populations, because they fear reprisals, but no Orthodox Jew has anything to fear (like having their family sit shiva for them and remove all contact with them). Not.

Nor is it even remotely possible, in your humble estimation, having grown up Reform (?) and now, later in life, getting more interested--like the false Orthodox you wrote about... c'mon. Be consistent. Use your brain and a level playing field. I ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT AN ORTHODOX WHO BURIED HIS FATHER AND GRANDFATHER WHO WERE ORTHODOX REBBES and had a testimony about being a secret believer. A NUMBER OF NEW TESTAMENT contributors were in the same state as secret believers, too.

I know you said that. It's just that I don't trust you to know the difference between someone who was authentically raised observant and someone who only claims it.

And I would know the difference with someone I met, how, exactly? You personally could get away with seeming observant, lifelong, now that you have completed some learning later in life, right?

The man I spoke to, one such person only, by the way, had a beard near to the floor and spoke with tremendous conviction, with tears in his eyes and voice--what would be the boon for him to portray an Orthodox person whose fathers were generations of rabbis--and how long do you think he'd skate on such a lie as a member of a Messianic Jewish congregation--filled with Jews and Gentiles of all stripes, but most of them born and raised Jewish...?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-03-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 02:02 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-03-2016 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can take all of your recent posts and all of mine, and we can derive your base argument that NO Orthodox or learned Jew would EVER become a Christian. I would think that even TTAtheists would see your folly and comment, since you are saying that the very religious people only use logic in their decisions. Dodgy

Paul was very learned and wrote 2/3 of the NT. Scholars agree his koine was articulate, his knowledge deep. He would be one example.

First, this is really important and then I will respond to your other comments. Paul was a putz. He couldn't read Hebrew.

Now for your other comments:

Let me clarify my base argument since there appears to be confusion. I would never claim that it's impossible for someone to have been raised orthodox and still worship Jesus. I've stated in a previous post that I've heard of someone who did. It's just that he has a mental deficiency. After thinking about it, I've actually met someone online who I sincerely believe was raised quasi orthodox, and he told me point blank that he has a personality disorder.

We've got people like the late Jhan Moskowitz of Jews for Jesus who claimed to have been raised orthodox, but then like many other claimants, he backed off when he couldn't substantiate it.

It has been my experience that messianic Jews who claim orthodox backgrounds have very limited exposure (at best) to authentic orthodox teachings. I've personally met messianic Jews who claimed to be from Orthodox backgrounds but couldn't tell me basic concepts of living a Torah observant lifestyle. Their motives for claiming orthodoxy seem to be to bolster the authenticity of their Judaic backgrounds in an effort to lend credibility to their Christian message.

For some reason Christians really want Jewish approval.

I have never met a messianic, or have read about a messianic person who grew up shomer mitzvot, attended Hebrew day school and yeshiva, davened shacharis, mincha and maariv in a daily minyan, wore a kippah and tzitzit, or dressed tznius, kept actual glatt kosher inside and outside the home and grew up doing netilat yadayim before a meal and benching after. If they can sing Eishes Chayil and the rest of the Shabbos zemirot, I would consider it to be a huge plus.

My experience is that messianics sugar-coat their upbringing because they have an axe to grind. Change my mind by providing me with actual profiles from learned Jewish people who believe in Yushke, and whose backgrounds can be verified by other observant Jews. I promise, it'll be nothing more invasive than a shidduch call.

Quote:Nor is it even remotely possible, in your humble estimation, having grown up Reform (?) and now, later in life, getting more interested--like the false Orthodox you wrote about... c'mon. Be consistent. Use your brain and a level playing field. I ALREADY TOLD YOU ABOUT AN ORTHODOX WHO BURIED HIS FATHER AND GRANDFATHER WHO WERE ORTHODOX REBBES and had a testimony about being a secret believer. A NUMBER OF NEW TESTAMENT contributors were in the same state as secret believers, too.

Isn't it nice when people are honest about their backgrounds? It gives you the chance to evaluate where they're coming from. I stated that I was raised Reform because I was raised Reform. I don't feel the need to lie about my upbringing to try to sway a person's impression of my knowledge in my favor.

Did you mean that your friend buried two rabbis or two rebbes (may Hashem rest their souls).

Your comments on Paul go against:

*Jewish scholars who recognize his Greek is above that of the apostles and others

*Abraham Maslow, the Jewish father of self-actualization theory, who called Paul the second most self-actualized leader, ever. Maslow never became Messianic, and went through the Shoah, too

Quote:I promise, it'll be nothing more invasive than a shidduch call.

Uh-huh. But you won't even say what you are practicing now, because... see your earlier post.

If you truly have an interest, which seems a little strange to me, as if you will believe Y'shua based not on your Tanakh studies and prayer and contemplation, but rather if learned Jews believe in Him first (?), you can get subscribed to Jews for Jesus's literature--their magazines have testimonies including background, life stories and details of Jews from all walks who love Y'shua. I'm in touch as I work on a college campus with many Jewish students, and I've read testimonies of numerous Orthodox believers, even ones who've lived in Israel lifelong, served in the military, etc.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-03-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
http://www.israelinprophecy.org/ENGLISH/..._jews.html

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-03-2016, 10:14 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(28-03-2016 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 09:18 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Isn't it obvious that Bucky is messing with you? I have no feelings (good or bad) toward Bucky, but that's obvious.

I told BB I'll leave TTA forever--and not come back under a different avatar, too, if he does it, once.
And it's very possible he just likes arguing with you, or that he knows it bothers you even a tiny bit.
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29-03-2016, 10:40 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Why would bb want to cause entertainment to leave?

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30-03-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And I would know the difference with someone I met, how, exactly?

This is exactly my point.

Granted, I don’t know if you were raised in an observant Jewish household, but based on what I’ve gathered about you, I’m guessing not. Yet you’re making definitive statements about people having Orthodox Jewish backgrounds and I just don’t accept that you’re qualified to judge. For what it’s worth, many people claiming Orthodoxy also don’t have the education to gauge their own actual backgrounds. They think because their parents dragged them to a Modern Orthodox synagogue every Saturday that that makes them Orthodox. Some of them think they’re orthodox because their grandparents held Passover Seders that exceeded one hour. To be fair, a lot of this stems from innocent ignorance rather than deception (though deception is still a factor for some).

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You personally could get away with seeming observant, lifelong, now that you have completed some learning later in life, right?

No. I cannot pass myself off as frum-from-birth (that’s “religious from birth” for the non-Jewish folks). No matter how much I learn, and no matter how long my skirts may be, I’m still decades behind my frum-from-birth counterparts in terms of religious education and observance. The evidence in my secular upbringing is so glaringly obvious that I can’t possibly hope to hide it. It drills down to the material of my clothing (a denim skirt, no matter how long marks you as an outsider) and how I add spices to a boiling pot (one does not shake the spice container over a boiling pot. You’ll render your entire spice container meat or dairy. The proper technique is to shake the spices into your hand, and then dust them into the pot.)

When I’m introduced to people who are frum (religious), they’re able to guess within minutes that I’m from a secular background. If your friends who claim orthodoxy were around actual observant Jews, their level of observance and the fluidity of their execution would be so apparent that they couldn’t hope to hide it no matter how hard they tried. Even though it’s not a stupidity situation, trying to pass yourself off as a native member of a foreign community will kind of produce a little Dunning-Krueger effect.

I’m not saying that you haven’t encountered messianic Jews from observant families. I can’t possibly know that for sure. I’m saying that I’ve never met or heard of any Jews who worship Jesus and who come from observant backgrounds. I don’t believe there are such people, and if you can show me a few (one?) I’d be very interested to hear their reasoning for converting.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The man I spoke to, one such person only, by the way, had a beard near to the floor and spoke with tremendous conviction, with tears in his eyes and voice—
Surely you must realize that growing a beard doesn’t make a person religious. There are modern orthodox who maintain trimmed beards, and some are totally bare faced.

“Conviction…” That’s an odd choice of words. Christians feel their religion. I’ve frequently seen Christians displaying visible signs of their conviction… crying, raising their hands in the air, praising Jesus and just getting very emotional in general. I don’t see this in Jewish communities. It’s just a bit odd. Maybe a bit disingenuous.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  what would be the boon for him to portray an Orthodox person whose fathers were generations of rabbis—

The boon is obvious. He’s trying to sell Christianity to uneducated Jews. By presenting themselves as educated “orthodox” Jews, Messianics are trying to bolster the authority of their message. It’s dishonest.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  --and how long do you think he'd skate on such a lie as a member of a Messianic Jewish congregation--filled with Jews and Gentiles of all stripes, but most of them born and raised Jewish...?

He could probably skate pretty far. Messianic congregations are made up of people who have no idea what proper orthodoxy is. If he presents himself as an orthodox man, and he’s got that beard that you say is so convincing, I would expect that the average congregant wouldn’t know the difference.
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30-03-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
No true orthodox? Well it'll be interesting to see how Qbert deals with this, since most of his crap is predicated on "no true Christian would do X".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-03-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(29-03-2016 10:40 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why would bb want to cause entertainment to leave?

You consider slapstick comedy as worthy entertainment? Consider

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30-03-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Quote:This is exactly my point.

Granted, I don’t know if you were raised in an observant Jewish household, but based on what I’ve gathered about you, I’m guessing not. Yet you’re making definitive statements about people having Orthodox Jewish backgrounds and I just don’t accept that you’re qualified to judge. For what it’s worth, many people claiming Orthodoxy also don’t have the education to gauge their own actual backgrounds. They think because their parents dragged them to a Modern Orthodox synagogue every Saturday that that makes them Orthodox. Some of them think they’re orthodox because their grandparents held Passover Seders that exceeded one hour. To be fair, a lot of this stems from innocent ignorance rather than deception (though deception is still a factor for some).

I think I understand. If people come to me, and it’s been more than one, to say they were Orthodox and had Orthodox family on all sides, but have trusted Christ, it must be that they weren’t really Orthodox at all. They didn’t really want to be in shul, which is why they plumbed the depths of two testaments to consider the truth claims of Y’shua! They weren’t really Orthodox to begin, which is why their family sat shiva for them and have shunned them for a decade or more. Even if they keep kashrut now and go only to Messianic fellowship, etc. This contrivance of yours is something you’ve added for your convenience.

I’ve posted links of “slightly” Orthodox people like the Chief Rabbi of Rome for you to ponder:

http://www.israelinprophecy.org/ENGLISH/..._jews.html

Quote: I’m not saying that you haven’t encountered messianic Jews from observant families. I can’t possibly know that for sure. I’m saying that I’ve never met or heard of any Jews who worship Jesus and who come from observant backgrounds. I don’t believe there are such people, and if you can show me a few (one?) I’d be very interested to hear their reasoning for converting.

See the link above, thanks.

Quote: “Conviction…” That’s an odd choice of words. Christians feel their religion. I’ve frequently seen Christians displaying visible signs of their conviction… crying, raising their hands in the air, praising Jesus and just getting very emotional in general. I don’t see this in Jewish communities. It’s just a bit odd. Maybe a bit disingenuous.

There is nothing wrong in using logic to explore the Bible. There is nothing wrong in having strong religious convictions, as you have, or being emotional/excited about religion, as you are—enough to post with me back and forth on this forum.

But understand, for Messianics, to experience joy in community and worship? Not so bad—of course, you are speaking—I hope—of Jewish religious practice, not Jewish communities. A Jewish wedding is also a religious observance—if you go to weddings where no one is clapping, singing, shouting Mazel Tov, dancing a hora—you are missing out! Christians, not just Messianic ones, need to understand that the Roman church killed what was in religious services and observances in the Tanakh, including music, dance, ecstatic worship and food.

Quote: The boon is obvious. He’s trying to sell Christianity to uneducated Jews. By presenting themselves as educated “orthodox” Jews, Messianics are trying to bolster the authority of their message. It’s dishonest.

The fellow was urging me to be born again, not to look better. He looked pretty bad, by the way, telling me he was afraid to lose his family and witness—so much so, he said, that he watched his lost father and grandfather, who were rabbis, die and go to Hell. Years later, I realized maybe they died and went to Heaven! I’m sorry, but you’ve misjudged here.

Quote: He could probably skate pretty far. Messianic congregations are made up of people who have no idea what proper orthodoxy is. If he presents himself as an orthodox man, and he’s got that beard that you say is so convincing, I would expect that the average congregant wouldn’t know the difference.

And this is why I wonder about your stance. Been to a lot of Messianic services, have you? Visited quite a number of Messianic groups in person? Or did you hear this from Toviah Singer:

Quote: Messianic congregations are made up of people who have no idea what proper orthodoxy is.

Typically, the rabbi of a Messianic congregation is very learned, and often, comes from an Orthodox background. You should live and be well and go to some Messianic services, bubbalah!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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