Why do theists come to this forum?
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30-03-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(30-03-2016 06:22 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And I would know the difference with someone I met, how, exactly?

This is exactly my point.

Granted, I don’t know if you were raised in an observant Jewish household, but based on what I’ve gathered about you, I’m guessing not. Yet you’re making definitive statements about people having Orthodox Jewish backgrounds and I just don’t accept that you’re qualified to judge. For what it’s worth, many people claiming Orthodoxy also don’t have the education to gauge their own actual backgrounds. They think because their parents dragged them to a Modern Orthodox synagogue every Saturday that that makes them Orthodox. Some of them think they’re orthodox because their grandparents held Passover Seders that exceeded one hour. To be fair, a lot of this stems from innocent ignorance rather than deception (though deception is still a factor for some).

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You personally could get away with seeming observant, lifelong, now that you have completed some learning later in life, right?

No. I cannot pass myself off as frum-from-birth (that’s “religious from birth” for the non-Jewish folks). No matter how much I learn, and no matter how long my skirts may be, I’m still decades behind my frum-from-birth counterparts in terms of religious education and observance. The evidence in my secular upbringing is so glaringly obvious that I can’t possibly hope to hide it. It drills down to the material of my clothing (a denim skirt, no matter how long marks you as an outsider) and how I add spices to a boiling pot (one does not shake the spice container over a boiling pot. You’ll render your entire spice container meat or dairy. The proper technique is to shake the spices into your hand, and then dust them into the pot.)

When I’m introduced to people who are frum (religious), they’re able to guess within minutes that I’m from a secular background. If your friends who claim orthodoxy were around actual observant Jews, their level of observance and the fluidity of their execution would be so apparent that they couldn’t hope to hide it no matter how hard they tried. Even though it’s not a stupidity situation, trying to pass yourself off as a native member of a foreign community will kind of produce a little Dunning-Krueger effect.

I’m not saying that you haven’t encountered messianic Jews from observant families. I can’t possibly know that for sure. I’m saying that I’ve never met or heard of any Jews who worship Jesus and who come from observant backgrounds. I don’t believe there are such people, and if you can show me a few (one?) I’d be very interested to hear their reasoning for converting.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The man I spoke to, one such person only, by the way, had a beard near to the floor and spoke with tremendous conviction, with tears in his eyes and voice—
Surely you must realize that growing a beard doesn’t make a person religious. There are modern orthodox who maintain trimmed beards, and some are totally bare faced.

“Conviction…” That’s an odd choice of words. Christians feel their religion. I’ve frequently seen Christians displaying visible signs of their conviction… crying, raising their hands in the air, praising Jesus and just getting very emotional in general. I don’t see this in Jewish communities. It’s just a bit odd. Maybe a bit disingenuous.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  what would be the boon for him to portray an Orthodox person whose fathers were generations of rabbis—

The boon is obvious. He’s trying to sell Christianity to uneducated Jews. By presenting themselves as educated “orthodox” Jews, Messianics are trying to bolster the authority of their message. It’s dishonest.

(29-03-2016 09:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  --and how long do you think he'd skate on such a lie as a member of a Messianic Jewish congregation--filled with Jews and Gentiles of all stripes, but most of them born and raised Jewish...?

He could probably skate pretty far. Messianic congregations are made up of people who have no idea what proper orthodoxy is. If he presents himself as an orthodox man, and he’s got that beard that you say is so convincing, I would expect that the average congregant wouldn’t know the difference.

Technically nobody can be classified as "Religious from birth". When you are born, you know nothing at all. You can be born to religious parents and be dragged off to church every week and force fed religious ideology, but no you cannot be religious until you can at least speak a bit and at least partially get the idea. I was not religious at birth and neither were you. I was briefly forced into it, but it never really stuck.
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30-03-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(30-03-2016 09:18 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Typically, the rabbi of a Messianic congregation is very learned, and often, comes from an Orthodox background. You should live and be well and go to some Messianic services, bubbalah!

Super! Can you point me to a few of these minister-rabbis? Maybe you know of some congregations that have websites with the minister's bio?

I have been to a messianic congregation. I've also seen a few services that have been posted to Youtube. As I mentioned, I had tried Christianity on for size, and while my exposure to messianic Judaism was admittedly very limited, what I did observe felt like it was nothing more than gold plated Judaism. Looked pretty on the outside, but crumbled on the inside.
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31-03-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(30-03-2016 09:18 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Aliza Wrote:Messianic congregations are made up of people who have no idea what proper orthodoxy is.

Typically, the rabbi of a Messianic congregation is very learned, and often, comes from an Orthodox background. You should live and be well and go to some Messianic services, bubbalah!

Here are two leaders of Messianic congregations. Maybe these videos will help you understand what I'm talking about. I know they're a little long, but I couldn't find shorter ones that illustrated my point.

Do you see anything wrong with these videos or do you see them as being consistent with the teachings and practices of any mainstream Jewish denomination? If so, can you explain why you feel that these are valid expressions of Judaism as such that any Jew should be able to relate to them?

'Rabbi' Scott's website




'Rabbi' Jonathan Cahn's website


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31-03-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 08:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 09:18 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Typically, the rabbi of a Messianic congregation is very learned, and often, comes from an Orthodox background. You should live and be well and go to some Messianic services, bubbalah!

Here are two leaders of Messianic congregations. Maybe these videos will help you understand what I'm talking about. I know they're a little long, but I couldn't find shorter ones that illustrated my point.

Do you see anything wrong with these videos or do you see them as being consistent with the teachings and practices of any mainstream Jewish denomination? If so, can you explain why you feel that these are valid expressions of Judaism as such that any Jew should be able to relate to them?

'Rabbi' Scott's website




'Rabbi' Jonathan Cahn's website



Before I watch the videos, please explain why these two ideas of yours are reconcilable:

1. NO true Jew would believe in Y'shua, particularly not one strong in religious practice and knowledge.

2. It is therefore necessary for these stupid Messianic converts to uphold all orthodoxy in their practice.

Reconcile those for me and I'll watch the videos and comment extensively.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-03-2016, 12:46 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 08:05 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Here are two leaders of Messianic congregations. Maybe these videos will help you understand what I'm talking about. I know they're a little long, but I couldn't find shorter ones that illustrated my point.

Do you see anything wrong with these videos or do you see them as being consistent with the teachings and practices of any mainstream Jewish denomination? If so, can you explain why you feel that these are valid expressions of Judaism as such that any Jew should be able to relate to them?

'Rabbi' Scott's website




'Rabbi' Jonathan Cahn's website



Before I watch the videos, please explain why these two ideas of yours are reconcilable:

1. NO true Jew would believe in Y'shua, particularly not one strong in religious practice and knowledge.

2. It is therefore necessary for these stupid Messianic converts to uphold all orthodoxy in their practice.

Reconcile those for me and I'll watch the videos and comment extensively.

Thanks.

Q, you're welcome to watch the videos or not. If you don't wish to, perhaps the conversation will continue with someone who does want watch them.

At any rate, I see from your questions that I legitimately do need to clarify my position.

1. I am not saying that "no true Jew" can worship Jesus. I'm not even saying that it's impossible that a learned, Orthodox Jew can worship Jesus. A True Jew™ is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who converted into Judaism to the satisfaction of the Jewish state. Belief and practice are not included in this definition. I can point to many, many Jews who believe in Jesus.

What I am saying is that I have yet to meet an authentically observant, educated Jew who later decided to start worshiping Jesus. I'm basically challenging you to back up the statements you made with examples of people who were raised orthodox, and then converted to messianic Christianity. I did look at the link you posted with the list of names. We can certainly discuss a few names on the list, but I guess I should have clarified that I wanted to learn about people who are alive today and whose situations are relevant to today's religious and political climate. Many Jews in the past converted to Christianity because of financial or political reasons and most of the people that I browsed on the list seemed not to be from Orthodox backgrounds anyway. You mentioned a Roman pope, and the Chief Rabbi of Rome (IIRC). We can discuss them too. You state that many messianic Rabbis were raised Orthodox. Please link me to some of their pages.

2. I don't think the Messianics who convert have low IQ's. I like to think my own IQ is fairly respectable, yet I was pulled into Christianity for lack of even a very rudimentary religious education. I think Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the Jewish foundation to understand why Jews disagree with Christians. For this reason, I don't find them qualified to speak on behalf of the Jewish people or the Jewish religion. That's basically what they're trying to do. They're trying to rewrite Jewish history to fit in their new theology.
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31-03-2016, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2016 02:46 PM by Birdguy1979.)
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 12:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Before I watch the videos, please explain why these two ideas of yours are reconcilable:

1. NO true Jew would believe in Y'shua, particularly not one strong in religious practice and knowledge.

2. It is therefore necessary for these stupid Messianic converts to uphold all orthodoxy in their practice.

Reconcile those for me and I'll watch the videos and comment extensively.

Thanks.

Q, you're welcome to watch the videos or not. If you don't wish to, perhaps the conversation will continue with someone who does want watch them.

At any rate, I see from your questions that I legitimately do need to clarify my position.

1. I am not saying that "no true Jew" can worship Jesus. I'm not even saying that it's impossible that a learned, Orthodox Jew can worship Jesus. A True Jew™ is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who converted into Judaism to the satisfaction of the Jewish state. Belief and practice are not included in this definition. I can point to many, many Jews who believe in Jesus.

To convert to the satisfaction of the jewish state is to worship. Or at least claim to and fake it when needed. I remember growing up under my parents' religion. At about 8 or 9, they start with wanting you to have first communion and go to classes in order to get the honor. I remember my parents forcing me to go and I had to pay attention and in my case I needed to fake it well enough to get it if I wanted the party that went with it. Parties in my case always meant presents and money, so of course I did what I had to do. If you can't at least know your stuff and fake it well enough to be believed, you can't join their club. The only way to be a non-practicing jew, you must be born into a jewish family. Once they have their hooks into, they will continue to consider you jewish. To no longer consider you jewish, would be to admit that people leave that religion and it is no more correct than any other. I know 2 non-believing jews. Even though they have turned their backs on their beliefs, they are still considered jewish by their families and the few friends they were able to keep.
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31-03-2016, 01:54 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 01:27 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 12:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Q, you're welcome to watch the videos or not. If you don't wish to, perhaps the conversation will continue with someone who does want watch them.

At any rate, I see from your questions that I legitimately do need to clarify my position.

1. I am not saying that "no true Jew" can worship Jesus. I'm not even saying that it's impossible that a learned, Orthodox Jew can worship Jesus. A True Jew™ is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who converted into Judaism to the satisfaction of the Jewish state. Belief and practice are not included in this definition. I can point to many, many Jews who believe in Jesus.

To convert to the satisfaction of the jewish state is to worship. Or at least claim to and fake it when needed. I remember growing up under my parents' religion. At about 8 or 9, they start with wanting you to have first communion and go to classes in order to get the honor. I remember my parents forcing me to go and I has to pay attention and in my case I needed to fake it well enough to get it if I wanted the party that went with it. Parties in my case always meant presents and money, so of course I did what I had to do. If you can't at least know your stuff and fake it well enough to be believed, you can't join their club. The only way to be a non-practicing jew, you must be born into a jewish family. Once they have their hooks into, they will continue to consider you jewish. To no longer consider you jewish, would be to admit that people leave that religion and it is no more correct than any other. I know 2 non-believing jews. Even though they have turned their backs on their beliefs, they are still considered jewish by their families and the few friends they were able to keep.

I'm not sure I'm following the point you're trying to make.

If you're born Jewish, the Jewish people consider you to be Jewish for life. If you convert to Judaism, and then later return to secularism, then you're still Jewish for life. We're not exactly hunting non-practicing Jews down at work and telling their employer that they're really Jews. Why do you care how we count our own people internally?

People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?

Hooks! There's a strong word. Why did you use it? Do Jews try to get their hooks into you? Is Jewish evangelism a problem in your area?
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31-03-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
Can a non-Jew be Jewish for life? I mean... other than by blood, can you become Jewish?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-03-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 02:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  Can a non-Jew be Jewish for life? I mean... other than by blood, can you become Jewish?

Yup! Just convert. But be warned! If you do, I'm going to consider you to be Jewish for the rest of your life whether you keep kosher or not.
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31-03-2016, 02:54 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 01:27 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  To convert to the satisfaction of the jewish state is to worship. Or at least claim to and fake it when needed. I remember growing up under my parents' religion. At about 8 or 9, they start with wanting you to have first communion and go to classes in order to get the honor. I remember my parents forcing me to go and I has to pay attention and in my case I needed to fake it well enough to get it if I wanted the party that went with it. Parties in my case always meant presents and money, so of course I did what I had to do. If you can't at least know your stuff and fake it well enough to be believed, you can't join their club. The only way to be a non-practicing jew, you must be born into a jewish family. Once they have their hooks into, they will continue to consider you jewish. To no longer consider you jewish, would be to admit that people leave that religion and it is no more correct than any other. I know 2 non-believing jews. Even though they have turned their backs on their beliefs, they are still considered jewish by their families and the few friends they were able to keep.

I'm not sure I'm following the point you're trying to make.

If you're born Jewish, the Jewish people consider you to be Jewish for life. If you convert to Judaism, and then later return to secularism, then you're still Jewish for life. We're not exactly hunting non-practicing Jews down at work and telling their employer that they're really Jews. Why do you care how we count our own people internally?

People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?

Hooks! There's a strong word. Why did you use it? Do Jews try to get their hooks into you? Is Jewish evangelism a problem in your area?

No, you mistook my point. If you are born into a practicing catholic family and baptized against your will and yes it is against you will, since you can't possibly understand at the age they do it. Your name is tossed into a registry and trying to get yourself removed is time consuming to say the least. For most, they don't even know that they are in some sort of registry, so they don't know they have to ask to be removed and write letters. That's why the numbers that are reported are so much higher than what is reality. There is no hunting required.
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