Why do theists come to this forum?
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31-03-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 02:54 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm not sure I'm following the point you're trying to make.

If you're born Jewish, the Jewish people consider you to be Jewish for life. If you convert to Judaism, and then later return to secularism, then you're still Jewish for life. We're not exactly hunting non-practicing Jews down at work and telling their employer that they're really Jews. Why do you care how we count our own people internally?

People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?

Hooks! There's a strong word. Why did you use it? Do Jews try to get their hooks into you? Is Jewish evangelism a problem in your area?

No, you mistook my point. If you are born into a practicing catholic family and baptized against your will and yes it is against you will, since you can't possibly understand at the age they do it. Your name is tossed into a registry and trying to get yourself removed is time consuming to say the least. For most, they don't even know that they are in some sort of registry, so they don't know they have to ask to be removed and write letters. That's why the numbers that are reported are so much higher than what is reality. There is no hunting required.

Sure, but that's Catholic. What does it have to do with Jews or "the Jewish state"? I'm not getting your point either. Jews are very different from Catholics.
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31-03-2016, 04:58 PM
Why do theists come to this forum?
As a recovering Catholic, I've looked into having my name removed from the roster. I even looked into excommunication. From what I can tell, it's almost impossible. I'll keep researching this, but I was told even if you're told you're excommunicated or removed, you're actually not. (Something about them having your best interests at heart.)
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31-03-2016, 07:28 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 02:54 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm not sure I'm following the point you're trying to make.

If you're born Jewish, the Jewish people consider you to be Jewish for life. If you convert to Judaism, and then later return to secularism, then you're still Jewish for life. We're not exactly hunting non-practicing Jews down at work and telling their employer that they're really Jews. Why do you care how we count our own people internally?

People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?

Hooks! There's a strong word. Why did you use it? Do Jews try to get their hooks into you? Is Jewish evangelism a problem in your area?

No, you mistook my point. If you are born into a practicing catholic family and baptized against your will and yes it is against you will, since you can't possibly understand at the age they do it. Your name is tossed into a registry and trying to get yourself removed is time consuming to say the least. For most, they don't even know that they are in some sort of registry, so they don't know they have to ask to be removed and write letters. That's why the numbers that are reported are so much higher than what is reality. There is no hunting required.

I didn't know Catholics keep registries. That's really a safety issue. If group of people ever decided to annihilate the Catholics, then they've got this handy registry to use to ferret out anyone who is or was Catholic.

When I said "to the satisfaction of the state of Israel," I was specifying that to be considered Jewish by everyone, the potential convert would need a really good conversion. Even then, they could live in any western minded country and choose to never identify themselves.

But okay, if you're really successful, we're going to find you and brag about you. Even if you're an atheist. Tongue
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31-03-2016, 10:51 PM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?
I might be alone in this but I find that no less creepy and disrespectful then the practice of Mormons baptizing the dead. It's not the most disturbing part of the religion, or really if I'm being fair not even the top 10, but it still rubs me the wrong way.

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01-04-2016, 12:48 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?

Besides being preposterously arrogant? Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-04-2016, 04:55 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 10:51 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 01:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  People definitely leave the religion. We see it and it has occurred throughout the entirety of Jewish history. Notable modern examples: David Silverman, Lawrence Krauss and Christopher Hitchens. They don't (or didn't) consider themselves to be Jewish anymore. We do. So what?
I might be alone in this but I find that no less creepy and disrespectful then the practice of Mormons baptizing the dead. It's not the most disturbing part of the religion, or really if I'm being fair not even the top 10, but it still rubs me the wrong way.

You are not alone.

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01-04-2016, 10:05 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(31-03-2016 12:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Before I watch the videos, please explain why these two ideas of yours are reconcilable:

1. NO true Jew would believe in Y'shua, particularly not one strong in religious practice and knowledge.

2. It is therefore necessary for these stupid Messianic converts to uphold all orthodoxy in their practice.

Reconcile those for me and I'll watch the videos and comment extensively.

Thanks.

Q, you're welcome to watch the videos or not. If you don't wish to, perhaps the conversation will continue with someone who does want watch them.

At any rate, I see from your questions that I legitimately do need to clarify my position.

1. I am not saying that "no true Jew" can worship Jesus. I'm not even saying that it's impossible that a learned, Orthodox Jew can worship Jesus. A True Jew™ is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who converted into Judaism to the satisfaction of the Jewish state. Belief and practice are not included in this definition. I can point to many, many Jews who believe in Jesus.

What I am saying is that I have yet to meet an authentically observant, educated Jew who later decided to start worshiping Jesus. I'm basically challenging you to back up the statements you made with examples of people who were raised orthodox, and then converted to messianic Christianity. I did look at the link you posted with the list of names. We can certainly discuss a few names on the list, but I guess I should have clarified that I wanted to learn about people who are alive today and whose situations are relevant to today's religious and political climate. Many Jews in the past converted to Christianity because of financial or political reasons and most of the people that I browsed on the list seemed not to be from Orthodox backgrounds anyway. You mentioned a Roman pope, and the Chief Rabbi of Rome (IIRC). We can discuss them too. You state that many messianic Rabbis were raised Orthodox. Please link me to some of their pages.

2. I don't think the Messianics who convert have low IQ's. I like to think my own IQ is fairly respectable, yet I was pulled into Christianity for lack of even a very rudimentary religious education. I think Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the Jewish foundation to understand why Jews disagree with Christians. For this reason, I don't find them qualified to speak on behalf of the Jewish people or the Jewish religion. That's basically what they're trying to do. They're trying to rewrite Jewish history to fit in their new theology.

Again, before I watch the videos, I want to emphasize that Messianics witness their faith to Jews and Gentiles. The Orthodox Messianic rabbis are astoundingly insightful teachers and preachers, especially when compared with the goyim, you know what I mean? But I'm yet to find rules in the NT that say Messianic congregations must retain all the elements of Orthodox ones--God has a big tent and Reform Jews who come to Messianic services don't need to do what Orthodox to be approved in God's eyes, even if they must do so to be approved in yours!

Having been to synagogues and Roman "churches" and Messianic and evangelical congregations, I'd say if a little dancing and music bothers you, you would understand why shul is boring to many people and evangelical good times enlightening!

If you're saying I need to watch the videos to somehow understand that Messianic groups led by former Orthodox Jews are not running Orthodox services for the Jews and Gentiles they lead--then what is it in the videos that will be new to me?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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01-04-2016, 10:12 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(01-04-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 12:46 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Q, you're welcome to watch the videos or not. If you don't wish to, perhaps the conversation will continue with someone who does want watch them.

At any rate, I see from your questions that I legitimately do need to clarify my position.

1. I am not saying that "no true Jew" can worship Jesus. I'm not even saying that it's impossible that a learned, Orthodox Jew can worship Jesus. A True Jew™ is someone born to a Jewish mother, or who converted into Judaism to the satisfaction of the Jewish state. Belief and practice are not included in this definition. I can point to many, many Jews who believe in Jesus.

What I am saying is that I have yet to meet an authentically observant, educated Jew who later decided to start worshiping Jesus. I'm basically challenging you to back up the statements you made with examples of people who were raised orthodox, and then converted to messianic Christianity. I did look at the link you posted with the list of names. We can certainly discuss a few names on the list, but I guess I should have clarified that I wanted to learn about people who are alive today and whose situations are relevant to today's religious and political climate. Many Jews in the past converted to Christianity because of financial or political reasons and most of the people that I browsed on the list seemed not to be from Orthodox backgrounds anyway. You mentioned a Roman pope, and the Chief Rabbi of Rome (IIRC). We can discuss them too. You state that many messianic Rabbis were raised Orthodox. Please link me to some of their pages.

2. I don't think the Messianics who convert have low IQ's. I like to think my own IQ is fairly respectable, yet I was pulled into Christianity for lack of even a very rudimentary religious education. I think Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the Jewish foundation to understand why Jews disagree with Christians. For this reason, I don't find them qualified to speak on behalf of the Jewish people or the Jewish religion. That's basically what they're trying to do. They're trying to rewrite Jewish history to fit in their new theology.

Again, before I watch the videos, I want to emphasize that Messianics witness their faith to Jews and Gentiles. The Orthodox Messianic rabbis are astoundingly insightful teachers and preachers, especially when compared with the goyim, you know what I mean? But I'm yet to find rules in the NT that say Messianic congregations must retain all the elements of Orthodox ones--God has a big tent and Reform Jews who come to Messianic services don't need to do what Orthodox to be approved in God's eyes, even if they must do so to be approved in yours!

Having been to synagogues and Roman "churches" and Messianic and evangelical congregations, I'd say if a little dancing and music bothers you, you would understand why shul is boring to many people and evangelical good times enlightening!

If you're saying I need to watch the videos to somehow understand that Messianic groups led by former Orthodox Jews are not running Orthodox services for the Jews and Gentiles they lead--then what is it in the videos that will be new to me?

For the sake of argument, let's just say a god does exist. Not everyone can be correct. It might be Thor, you never know. You may be pissing god off by going to the wrong church or whatever. It may be the muslim god allah. I don't see any reason to believe any of them exist, but all the holy books disagree about so many things. They can't all be correct and that is assuming that one of them is. So to say that you don't have to worship exactly the way the supposedly correct ones do it in order to be accepted by "god" is incorrect at the very least.
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01-04-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(01-04-2016 10:12 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, before I watch the videos, I want to emphasize that Messianics witness their faith to Jews and Gentiles. The Orthodox Messianic rabbis are astoundingly insightful teachers and preachers, especially when compared with the goyim, you know what I mean? But I'm yet to find rules in the NT that say Messianic congregations must retain all the elements of Orthodox ones--God has a big tent and Reform Jews who come to Messianic services don't need to do what Orthodox to be approved in God's eyes, even if they must do so to be approved in yours!

Having been to synagogues and Roman "churches" and Messianic and evangelical congregations, I'd say if a little dancing and music bothers you, you would understand why shul is boring to many people and evangelical good times enlightening!

If you're saying I need to watch the videos to somehow understand that Messianic groups led by former Orthodox Jews are not running Orthodox services for the Jews and Gentiles they lead--then what is it in the videos that will be new to me?

For the sake of argument, let's just say a god does exist. Not everyone can be correct. It might be Thor, you never know. You may be pissing god off by going to the wrong church or whatever. It may be the muslim god allah. I don't see any reason to believe any of them exist, but all the holy books disagree about so many things. They can't all be correct and that is assuming that one of them is. So to say that you don't have to worship exactly the way the supposedly correct ones do it in order to be accepted by "god" is incorrect at the very least.

Just for the record... from a Jewish perspective, worshiping G-d or believing in G-d is not required at all. We think it would be nice if you believed in G-d, but it's okay if you don't. If G-d needed to be worshiped, then G-d would not be infinite. If you needed to worship G-d to avoid eternal punishment, then G-d had the means to ensure your compliance.

The main idea is to learn, grow, and live a wonderful life. Not to turn your life over to G-d and just let Jesus take the wheel.
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01-04-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Why do theists come to this forum?
(01-04-2016 10:44 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 10:12 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  For the sake of argument, let's just say a god does exist. Not everyone can be correct. It might be Thor, you never know. You may be pissing god off by going to the wrong church or whatever. It may be the muslim god allah. I don't see any reason to believe any of them exist, but all the holy books disagree about so many things. They can't all be correct and that is assuming that one of them is. So to say that you don't have to worship exactly the way the supposedly correct ones do it in order to be accepted by "god" is incorrect at the very least.

Just for the record... from a Jewish perspective, worshiping G-d or believing in G-d is not required at all. We think it would be nice if you believed in G-d, but it's okay if you don't. If G-d needed to be worshiped, then G-d would not be infinite. If you needed to worship G-d to avoid eternal punishment, then G-d had the means to ensure your compliance.

The main idea is to learn, grow, and live a wonderful life. Not to turn your life over to G-d and just let Jesus take the wheel.

So... is kosher and all that stuff necessary too? What *is* necessary in order to be Jewish?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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