Why do they feel entitled?
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18-05-2018, 07:46 PM
RE: Why do they feel entitled?
I support free speech and competing ideas, so long as the speaker is not calling for violence. The principles of the Enlightenment are generally workable. Whatever damage Trump has done with his lies and hatred, the majority of Americans still oppose him. It is not free speech that has failed this culture, it is the lack of focus.
But while we're on this issue: I couldn't be less impressed with all the right-wingers in this era who go around posing as free speech champions. Right-wingers on average (obviously there are always exceptions) care as much about free speech as they do the environment or workers' rights. Not at all.
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18-05-2018, 09:21 PM
RE: Why do they feel entitled?
(18-05-2018 04:39 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(17-05-2018 09:23 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Each generation need to be educated. Cranks, hate mongers and fools aren't those who can provide such and therefore their presence on universities is not needed. Students can be exposed to idiotic ideas during courses they take, without inviting fools to place of learning and giving them veneer of respectability.

If done properly there is no veneer of respectability.
Instead, it puts them on exhibit as the freaks they are.
Veneer of respectability aside, cranks and hate mongers shouldn't be given audience. Idiocy does not deserve help in being spread.

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23-05-2018, 02:54 PM
Tongue RE: Why do they feel entitled?
Sorry for the delay brother!

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Perhaps USA version of it would be American identity, as in nationalists in Poland says that others act in un-Polish way. Aren't some people in states claiming that certain things are un-American?
From my understanding ya the Americans do that, though not as bad as in the old "Ahhh Communists!!" days.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  It was fringe group doing this but still I lack words to describe my disgust.
I don't blame you at all for that, I personally have a hard time understanding "racism" as a thing people like actually ascribe to. Like I get making judgment calls on cultures, cultures who hack the genitals off prepubescent girls are inferior to those that don't, but to look at someone and conclude "your melanin count is outside the rage of what I personally view as acceptable, fuck off you <insert racial epitaph>" seems utterly insane to me. Like a legitimate from of madness, it makes no rational sense to me so when I see people appeal to that kinda nonsense in political discourse it just turns my stomach.


(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Perhaps this is intolerance or some other unsavory thing but I couldn't care less about neo nazis or assorted scum alleged right to speech.
I get why you came to that conclusion and I don't consider it unreasonable or even immoral, I just can't come to the same value judgment. Historically I've seen to many cases of that "net of deplorables" being increasingly widened to include things and people who absolutely shouldn't be included.

The UK is a perfect example of this where the "net of deplorables" has expanded so quickly and so dramatically that comedian's make jokes (in which the court dictated to that man what his really intent and context was) to people being charged and sentenced for posting rap lyrics on line. It's a snow ball that once it gets rolling just increases in size and power and almost always ends up being used against the people that supported it.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Or to put it differently I just feel that they shouldn't be invited to Universities - it's not the same thing as silencing them, it's just limiting number of places where they can spew hatredand ignorance.
I agree in that I don't want Nazi's and their ilk being invited to universities, and if someone invited a Nazi to the University in my city I'd likely go down their and protest them but peacefully. The problem I have with limiting the free speech of even neo-nazis is that you provide an avenue for bad actors, or people acting in ignorance, to shut down people they don't like by simply calling a person a Nazi and we see this kinda shit in the US all the time already.

Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, Christian Hoff Sommers, Charles Murray, Dave Rubin, even Milo Yiannopoulos who I think is a deeply unpleasant human being are NOT Nazis. They just aren't, yet every single one of them have been at one time or another protested by groups of idiots who call them Nazi's. Even the gay married liberal Jew that is Mr. Rubin.

My hesitation to stripping people, even the ugliest of the ugly that is neo-nazi, is that if you create a special class of people not allowed to speak bad actors will continually push that classification on to more and more reasonable people. I protect the free speech of everyone cause because there is a growing amount of people who are too stupid to figure out who the nazi's are ,and that to me is more dangerous than letting a few bigoted people be stupid in front of a crowd.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I put far more value on knowledge than on right of cranks to spew nonsense and knowledge is better served by inviting people having something smart even if controversial to say.
I 100% agree, but there are people who don't want to hear ANYTHING even remotely contrary to what they believe and they will try to get those people shut down on the grounds of hate speech. Those people who just believe controversial things, or hell even those who some subset of people erroneously believe have controversial views have and will be increasingly caught up in "hate speech".

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I don't think that we can end those beliefs. Nazism was legitimized by power so if losing war didn't ended it then at best we can keep such from entering respectable places. Creationism which I suppose is bassed on pride of being crown of creation also can't be erradicated in such way I wager.
I think this is an area where we disagree, I think inevitably these ideas will be stamped out especially in regards to creationism, at least in regards to having any impact on mainstream society as there will always be isolated pockets of stupid.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Just think that clown extolling alleged virtues of totalitarian regimes or racism will be well spoken and person debunking his crap will be less so.
i can see where you are coming from but when it comes to Nazism I think, given that most people at least on this side of the pond have at the minimum a cursory understanding of the evil of Nazism.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Potentialy audience could be swayed toward crank view and this potential is risk enough for me to opt for denying venue to clowns.
It's possible but I think the venue that's least likely to happen in is a place of higher learning.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Perhaps it will look to you as if I lack faith in people but I met history students praising Mussolini or thinking that Virgin Mary helped defeat bolsheviks in Polish-Soviet war. Given this I have little doubt that any cookery could find purchase if speaker would be canny enough.
I get where you are coming from. The US has had this free speech for bigots for a very long time and I think if, for example, Nazism was going to take root it would have happened by now. I think I talked about the KKK before but one of the things that really pushed them into irrelevancy is the fact that they openly talked about their views and people rightly recognized that these people were bloody insane.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Also I yet again will mention veener of respectability.
I just don't see this as a factor to any degree it could be impactful or relevant, I don't see any person who rejected the idea of gassing the Jews suddenly awaking to the idea cause it was said on a university campus. I just don't think it's a factor especially not to the point it justifies stripping someone of their rights.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I think about Universities as of places where things of merit are talked about and therefore if something is discussed there then it is something worth listening.
I agree, I think they should be adn that that's the ideal too shoot for. Am I willing to violate the rights of individuals to make this ideal a reality? Fundamentally no.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I hope I managed to explain my position at least a little - it may be more a gut feeling than something reasoned.
Oh don't worry brother I entirely get where you are coming from. I fully agree with your sentiment and your view, I just don't support a method that gets us there that involves stripping people of a right.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  People in charge of University.
Personally I agree fundamentally, I think a private university has the right, like any business, to refuse access to anyone it wishes to. I don't think a government funded University has that ability though.


(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I said that chosen symbol is understandable not rational or fitting. Given Red Army blood price and Russian propaganda I can understand why some people use such symbol in context you mention. To understand isn't the same as to condone however.
Ah gotcha haha, my bad that misunderstanding is on me.

I still reserve the right to think those people are twats though ahaha

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure. But while "communism" was nightmare it is still sometimes seen as noble dream and symbol of defiance (Spain and Franco).
Agreed, I think those people are monstrously ignorant of history.


(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  After Stalin death USSR was far less murderous so I don't much care for such argument. I don't discount it completely but biggest crimes of SU happened regardless of West stance.
I think it's impossible to calculate really, the worst of the worst came from Stalin obviously, but i think if it wasn't for the US and her allies flexing their muscles and hemming the Soviets in where they did that those horrific programs could have extended to a much larger population.

That's also not taking into account what these people consider that flag emblematic of. is it just Soviet "Communism" or is it Communism itself even outside of the Soviet system cause if that's the case, if you are fighting under the banner of communism you got to march tot he top of Mao's pile of dead to.

Personally for me it comes down to this for me personally, if you can point at a Nazi and moralize while under the banner of Communism I think you are uniquely unqualified to moralize at all. That's just my opinion though for what it's worth, I think there is nothing to be gained by affixing to a murderous ideology to fight another murderous ideology.


(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Never heard of it but I will look for Polish edition. Last thing on Stalin I read was his biography by Oleg Khlevniuk. It's quite recent and as far as I can tell well researched and convincing.
If there is an English translation I'll pick that up, I have thus far always enjoyed your book recommendations and I don't see that trend ending any time soon.


(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Thing is that I'm making no call. I would ban* many people from speaking at Universities if I could but I can not and so no consequences of my would be decission will fall on others.
Right but are you willing to allow other people dictate to you who you can and can't listen to? I'm not, which is why I don't try to make those choices for others either.



(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Probably. But neo nazis rights aren't being infringed upon in Poland and if they were I doubt that I would speak in defence of such scum (putting aside issue of my voice carring less than little weight). It may be not most moral stance but I don't call myself a good man.
That's funny to me because I think you are a very good man, I especially regard you as an honest man and you have my respect even if we don't agree on everything in this subject. I think you're a better man than you suspect brother. Smile

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I wouldn't risk rating it's importance but both books being required reading would be a good thing I suppose. As a side note I would also add Grossman and Bulgakov if they aren't akready there.
Sadly I don't think either are but it's been the better part of 14 years since I was int he education system. Trying to remember if I read The Hell of Treblinka in school or after......probably after.

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Since reading "Memoirs from the Gouse of the Dead" I dislike Dostoyevsky. As for both writers importance, again I wouldn't risk rating it.
No that's fair, I think I have some weird OCD-esqe were I need to rate everything. I'm serious too I have a descending ranking of shades of purple that's 12+ or longer at this point.

That line between genius and madness eh? Haha

(14-05-2018 06:05 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I start and stop at calling it religion.
I don't think that is unfair in the slightest brother.



Geeze, I'm sorry for making you wait so long Szuchow. that's entirely on me and my easily distracted brain, I must have caught a glint of something shinny somewhere along the way Big Grin

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23-05-2018, 03:45 PM
RE: Why do they feel entitled?
(18-05-2018 09:21 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Veneer of respectability aside, cranks and hate mongers shouldn't be given audience. Idiocy does not deserve help in being spread.
I agree.

Where we disagree is on how to best keep it from spreading. Yes

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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Yesterday, 04:52 AM
RE: Why do they feel entitled?
(23-05-2018 02:54 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Sorry for the delay brother!


No problem.

Quote:
From my understanding ya the Americans do that, though not as bad as in the old "Ahhh Communists!!" days.


Ah.

Quote: I don't blame you at all for that, I personally have a hard time understanding "racism" as a thing people like actually ascribe to. Like I get making judgment calls on cultures, cultures who hack the genitals off prepubescent girls are inferior to those that don't, but to look at someone and conclude "your melanin count is outside the rage of what I personally view as acceptable, fuck off you <insert racial epitaph>" seems utterly insane to me. Like a legitimate from of madness, it makes no rational sense to me so when I see people appeal to that kinda nonsense in political discourse it just turns my stomach.


However distasteful racism is it went beyond that. To celebrate birthday of man responsible for death of millions of one countryman, man who would deem those celebrating subhumans... My English vocabulary is insufficient to find insult fitting here.


Quote: I get why you came to that conclusion and I don't consider it unreasonable or even immoral, I just can't come to the same value judgment. Historically I've seen to many cases of that "net of deplorables" being increasingly widened to include things and people who absolutely shouldn't be included.

The UK is a perfect example of this where the "net of deplorables" has expanded so quickly and so dramatically that comedian's make jokes (in which the court dictated to that man what his really intent and context was) to people being charged and sentenced for posting rap lyrics on line. It's a snow ball that once it gets rolling just increases in size and power and almost always ends up being used against the people that supported it.


There is risk of widening the list but when you can hear antisemitic slurs in public Tv moments after so called Holocaust bill was announced then tide must be stopped. Banning fools from Universities might be only raging against dying light at this point though as right wing nutter infected too many I'm afraid (remember previous post aand PM blunder?)

Quote: I agree in that I don't want Nazi's and their ilk being invited to universities, and if someone invited a Nazi to the University in my city I'd likely go down their and protest them but peacefully. The problem I have with limiting the free speech of even neo-nazis is that you provide an avenue for bad actors, or people acting in ignorance, to shut down people they don't like by simply calling a person a Nazi and we see this kinda shit in the US all the time already.

Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, Christian Hoff Sommers, Charles Murray, Dave Rubin, even Milo Yiannopoulos who I think is a deeply unpleasant human being are NOT Nazis. They just aren't, yet every single one of them have been at one time or another protested by groups of idiots who call them Nazi's. Even the gay married liberal Jew that is Mr. Rubin.

My hesitation to stripping people, even the ugliest of the ugly that is neo-nazi, is that if you create a special class of people not allowed to speak bad actors will continually push that classification on to more and more reasonable people. I protect the free speech of everyone cause because there is a growing amount of people who are too stupid to figure out who the nazi's are ,and that to me is more dangerous than letting a few bigoted people be stupid in front of a crowd.


Banning one group creates precedence but I just can't find it in me to protect alleged right of Nazis to spew hatred. I don't really see it as free speech issue - they can spew their crap in beer halls like their idol; they're not silenced, nor prosecuted for what they say. They merely have one venue less to spread hatred.

Not being allowed to scream fire in crowded theatre is what we can abide by. Similarly I think we could live with Universities as places where there is no place for unscientific crap.

Quote:I 100% agree, but there are people who don't want to hear ANYTHING even remotely contrary to what they believe and they will try to get those people shut down on the grounds of hate speech. Those people who just believe controversial things, or hell even those who some subset of people erroneously believe have controversial views have and will be increasingly caught up in "hate speech".


That is possible but I still think that deplorable people shouldn't be given venue to spew hatred. There is enough of it in Poland.

Quote:I think this is an area where we disagree, I think inevitably these ideas will be stamped out especially in regards to creationism, at least in regards to having any impact on mainstream society as there will always be isolated pockets of stupid.


I hope that you're right but ignorance is strong in Poland and so I think that it will remain unenlightened shithole.

Quote:
i can see where you are coming from but when it comes to Nazism I think, given that most people at least on this side of the pond have at the minimum a cursory understanding of the evil of Nazism.


I thought so too but Independence March (where were banners "We pray for Islamic Holocaust" and similar ones) and celebrating Hitler birthday in Poland robbed me of innocence.

Quote: It's possible but I think the venue that's least likely to happen in is a place of higher learning.


I would like to share your optimism.

Quote:
I get where you are coming from. The US has had this free speech for bigots for a very long time and I think if, for example, Nazism was going to take root it would have happened by now. I think I talked about the KKK before but one of the things that really pushed them into irrelevancy is the fact that they openly talked about their views and people rightly recognized that these people were bloody insane.


Here part of population saw no problem with idiotic Holocaust bill denying Poles culpability in Shoah. Antisemitic shitstorm that happened here prove that many are too dense to see even villest shit for what it is.

Ignorant and hateful views can damaging to speakers only if they aren't silently accepted by part of populace. Otherwise speakers just get another arena to sell nonsense.

Quote: I just don't see this as a factor to any degree it could be impactful or relevant, I don't see any person who rejected the idea of gassing the Jews suddenly awaking to the idea cause it was said on a university campus. I just don't think it's a factor especially not to the point it justifies stripping someone of their rights.


There might be people on campuses that do not reject the idea outright and talented speaker can do wonders. Also it does not begin with gassing, hatred must be grown first and those who spew it shouldn't be able to do it from respected venues.


Quote: I agree, I think they should be adn that that's the ideal too shoot for. Am I willing to violate the rights of individuals to make this ideal a reality? Fundamentally no.


Rights of cranks would be violated if they were persecuted for what they say. Not inviting them to Universities merely may hurt their sales pitch.

Just to be clear - I'm not in favor of gov making list of banned speakers, only Universities themselves growing wise enough to soft ban them. I hope I didn't make different impression with previous posts.

Quote: Oh don't worry brother I entirely get where you are coming from. I fully agree with your sentiment and your view, I just don't support a method that gets us there that involves stripping people of a right.


Ignorants not allowed verbal masturbation on College conferences have their rights stripped in the same way that talentless "musician" not being allowed to sing with Rolling Stones.I think.

Quote: Personally I agree fundamentally, I think a private university has the right, like any business, to refuse access to anyone it wishes to. I don't think a government funded University has that ability though.


I think that gov funded ones have or should have the same right.


Quote: Ah gotcha haha, my bad that misunderstanding is on me.

I still reserve the right to think those people are twats though ahaha

They may be.

Quote: Agreed, I think those people are monstrously ignorant of history.

To certain extent. It were "communist" who freed swathes of Europe; Nazism was merely destructive, "communism" for all it's evil managed to do some positive things.


Quote:
I think it's impossible to calculate really, the worst of the worst came from Stalin obviously, but i think if it wasn't for the US and her allies flexing their muscles and hemming the Soviets in where they did that those horrific programs could have extended to a much larger population.

Khruschev as far as I know didn't have much appetite for destruction, Hungary aside. USSR left it worst phase with Stalin death I think.

Quote: That's also not taking into account what these people consider that flag emblematic of. is it just Soviet "Communism" or is it Communism itself even outside of the Soviet system cause if that's the case, if you are fighting under the banner of communism you got to march tot he top of Mao's pile of dead to.

Personally for me it comes down to this for me personally, if you can point at a Nazi and moralize while under the banner of Communism I think you are uniquely unqualified to moralize at all. That's just my opinion though for what it's worth, I think there is nothing to be gained by affixing to a murderous ideology to fight another murderous ideology.

The thing is that communism despite horrific reality stood for something noble and some remember only this part. Red Army flag on Reichstag also gives it certain let's say nobility and so some see no problem with fighting under such emblem. It may be not wise or moral but I can understand it, even if I wouldn't do such myself.

Quote:
If there is an English translation I'll pick that up, I have thus far always enjoyed your book recommendations and I don't see that trend ending any time soon.

It was originally written in English. It's fair minded portrayal of Stalin, without making him mustache twirling villain or well meaning but scary uncle.


Quote:
Right but are you willing to allow other people dictate to you who you can and can't listen to? I'm not, which is why I don't try to make those choices for others either.

I'm willing to left to Universities to decide who will speak there. You could say I'm willing to allow to dictate unto me where I will hear certain things.



Quote:
That's funny to me because I think you are a very good man, I especially regard you as an honest man and you have my respect even if we don't agree on everything in this subject. I think you're a better man than you suspect brother. Smile


I think that I'm average Joe on scale of goodness but average Joe has excuse of ignorance (Poles and books) and I'm not so that's not great achievement.

Quote: Sadly I don't think either are but it's been the better part of 14 years since I was int he education system. Trying to remember if I read The Hell of Treblinka in school or after......probably after.

Let's just say that school lists should include far more books.



Quote:
I don't think that is unfair in the slightest brother.

Agreed.



Quote: Geeze, I'm sorry for making you wait so long Szuchow. that's entirely on me and my easily distracted brain, I must have caught a glint of something shinny somewhere along the way Big Grin

No problem.

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