Why do we even bother? Theism vs Atheism
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08-05-2012, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2012 12:31 PM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: Why do we even bother? Theism vs Atheism
I fight against religion because it causes just people to do unjust things.

We wouldn't have given a damn if people were gay if religion didn't had anything to say on the matter(We might have but like racism I believe it would be extinguished).

Religion also allows for some of the most insane and stupid actions we could possibly ever imagine. Suicide bombers, terror attacks, killing my neighbor because he works on Sunday(How can people be so wretched to work on such a holy day that is exactly as any other day except with a name change!? The absolute horror).

Future generations will be shocked at how unintelligently we followed something so wrong. There are good theists but I believe it to be unhealthy to not question.

I like how some churches spew that we are brainwashed by some non existent leftist agenda when they blatantly blind children to follow them. It is sad and just reveals that they can't convince a well reasoned adult and go after kids minds and instead of sculpting to question the fantastic world they live in they are just given the simple answer that God did it.

I believe though a majority of people who are against the church (even those who are religious) is that they interfere with the personal lives and choices of people. They shouldn't interfere in politics but do so. I remember watching people saying I'm not going to vote for people because of politics but because my religion told me to vote for a complete and utter moron because he is of the same lunatic church.

A close friend who is a Mormon is voting Romney and when I asked her what she thought of his politics she responded that she didn't know of any but just because he is a Mormon she would vote for him. It shows how people don't seem to even care about it as long as their religion is the same.

Religion needs to finally be separated from political matters. People need to stop using the excuse of God to push their own favors and need to finally have a state where everyone is equal. Not one where people believe a hippie zombie are superior.

I know I've been picking on Islam a bit much lately but I believe it is a perfect current example of what happens when religion holds complete power over the minds of people.

Religion is the greatest enemy of mankind. It is the greatest weapon we have ever forged and one that has become so deadly that in the era of nuclear arms we could end ourselves in an instant.

If theism simply stopped trying to force everyone to be like them. I would be kinder. It is the fact that they need to control people that I simply don't like.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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08-05-2012, 12:40 PM
RE: Why do we even bother? Theism vs Atheism
As far as debates online in general- I engage because I almost always learn something. Even in conversations about the debate.

I don't think I'll change anyone's mind, or make some amount of difference. If I did I probably wouldn't even know about it.

But I learn. Hopefully other people learn from me, though I'm no profound teacher.
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08-05-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: Why do we even bother? Theism vs Atheism
Sup, Kineo?

Thanks for the props.

Quote:I'm curious about your personal aspect though (and I'm going to attempt,
and probably fail, to speak in the same terms)- in your breakdown on
memes you stress that there is no right way to live and then later you
say that you consider yourself agnostic rather than an atheist or a
theist because you don't want to take a side that says "there is only
one right way to live". Isn't any position, even your position of
wishing for a better world, a statement that suggests your position is a
better or the best position? Especially since your goal is for a
better world. That is, in a way, a rejection of both theism and atheism
even while you wish to encompass both with diversity.

There's nothing inherent in Theism or Atheism per-se that makes them believe
there is one right way to live. The one right way meme is a meme. A
single trait. It can exist in multiple meme pools. Like eyes, or arms.
Many species have them. Some do not. Any memeplex with the one right way
meme is problematic. It just so happens that many of the religious
memeplexes and some of the Atheist memeplexes have that meme.

And to head off some confusion, Atheists do have memeplexes. To say they
don't is like saying some animal doesn't have a genome because it lacks
certain genes. All humans "host" memeplexes. We all need them because we
all need a construct of reality so we can function.

I'm not an Agnostic because Theism or Atheism have the one right way
meme, I'm an Agnostic because of reason and logic as I see them. I am an adversary of the one right way meme because the issue facing humanity is a steadfast refusal to change our ways. If one believes there is only one way and that they have it, then there's no way to convince them to change their ways.

For some reason, the following is counter-intuitive to people. When I say,
there is no one right way, some people take that to mean there is
NO way. But I begin from the premise that everyone needs a way in order
to function. What no right way means is that none of those ways, the
many ways people live, is THE right way. So not only CAN I have a way, I
MUST have a way. The meme that I lack is that there is only one right
way. Instead, I have the meme there is no one right way to live. Because
of that, I'm not driven to make people live my way. And if people
around me have different ways, so be it. They can exist along side me
with zero issue. Doesn't mean we won't have conflicts, but it means that
I don't have to force them to live like me. So my way is just that, MY
way. It isn't THE way.

My position isn't better, it's good for ME. If it wasn't, I'd change it; theoretically anyway, we all get caught in ruts.

My vision of a better world is one where there's humans in it in 200
years. I personally think that the human race should not commit suicide,
but that in no way means that everyone agrees with me. Lots of people
would love to see humans go the way of the dodo. But if people resonate
with my vision, then there's a lot I can tell them that will help them
enact it.

There's a difference between enjoying/promoting/being proud of the way
you live and impelling others to live that way. Look at the vegan
thread. There are vegans who are willing to explain why they are one and
share how good they feel their life is and there are others who want to
impose veganism on everyone.

What is of concern for me on a personal level is that I see a conflict
between Theists and Atheists and I trace the roots of that, not
exclusively but to large degree, to the there is only one right way
meme. That's why I engage with Theists and Atheists. To shed light on
the existence of that meme and try to get them to nix it so we can all
sit at the table and talk about the important stuff.

Quote:Additionally, light of your post, I think that atheism is not a
statement saying "there is only one right way to live", but rather "a
refusal of some possible ways to live"; and it retains its relationship
with theism in that it denies that the theistic way of life is the
correct way of life without necessarily making a claim about how one
should live aside from not adhering to a theistic way of life. You
yourself are a third member of the bunch, making a claim to the correct
way of life. Not that I disagree with your position- I think you've got
some great points. But you're one of us, like it or not! [Image: evil_monster.gif]

You are correct. Atheism is not a statement saying there is one right
way to live. You are doubly correct that it is a rejection of certain
ways. And thrice correct in that Atheism makes no claim of DO, only of
DON'T. That's why it's a protest movement that cannot exist outside of
its relationship to Theism. Secular humanism can, but that's because it
takes a position of it's own.

I do think that Agnosticism is the best choice. That's why I made it.
But I don't take steps to usher in a new era of global Agnosticism.

And, brother, I ain't one of you. I know you want me on your team because
I'm so smart, charming and devilishly handsome, but you cannot have me

Quote:There are some atheistic memes that arise as a result of rejection of
theism, like secular humanism, or a Marxist-Leninist atheist. Not all
atheists are secular humanists (from a political or philosophical
standpoint), but it does lend itself naturally as a meme upon rejection
of religion. Secular humanism is a more positive claim to beliefs about
how one should live life, whereas atheism is simply a rejection of a
set of others. Secular humanism is both a rejection of all other memes
and a positive claim that it is "the one right way to live".

Not just memes, but whole memeplexes, like secular humanism, or Marxist-Leninism.

Quote:I think you're right about the default atheist worldview, but I wonder
what examples of beliefs a default atheist would have. Do you have any
examples? Genuine curiosity on my part! [Image: biggrin.gif]

Well, to be honest, I don't have any examples because I think this default position thing is a bunch of bullshit, but that's me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

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08-05-2012, 01:55 PM
RE: Why do we even bother? Theism vs Atheism
Hey Matt, thanks again for the information! I ain't mad that you're not an atheist, but, just so you know- it is the only way to live! Big Grin

I kid, I kid. Seriously though, fantastic post. When I said I engage to learn, this is one of those times. Thumbsup
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