Why do you desire truth?
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10-05-2017, 06:01 AM
Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 01:22 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The closer the models of reality I have in my head are to actual reality, the better placed I am to make good decisions. From a biological standpoint, that desire would ultimately be about survival I guess. It's an advantage to understand your environment and to be able to make decisions so that the outcomes closely match your intentions, so the ability to do this well would have been naturally selected.


From a biological standpoint, natural selection favored minds with variety of natural tendencies, confirmation biases, negatively bias, etc.. and not minds absent of such tendencies so that they can draw closer models of reality. Natural selection favored minds that when it comes to beliefs we value, vs any competing reality that undermines them, to favor that which we value over that which is true. Our basic biology, seems to be a great admirer of deceptions.

As for decisions go, decisions that require considerations on our part, only a limited set of information is required for most of them. And as far as decisions that promote our survival and reproduction, all that's required is the actual behaviors and actions conducive to it, not the amount of thought. It doesn't matter if you were driven to those particular actions through deceptions, biases, or ignorance, the result is the same.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 06:26 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 05:44 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  “Part of being healthy is getting regular checkups from qualified medical professionals accredited in their specialties, and insuring if need be that I make the necessary life style changes to keep me healthy."

As a corrollary to what Gwaithmir asked would you go to a witch doctor, alternative medicine “doctor” or faith healer for your regular checkups? More importantly would you follow their recommendations for that horrible pain in your lower intestines or would you see a qualified gastroenterologist?

That is the choice you are giving us when you ask if we want the truth or to be happy, it is an inane question. Stop asking it, it is as ridiculous as making you choose between a medical professional and a quack.

Not really. In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health.

Since I'm concerned with that which is conducive to my physical health, it's best to get advice from specialist, and doctors who have the appropriate training, and knowledge in these areas for checkups, and revisions. What I don't need though is the doctors or specialist level of knowledge of my diagnosis and treatments, trusting them and following their advice would suffice.

Some knowledge plays an entirely functional role in whats conducive to an individuals health and happiness, I grant that. Most of it doesn't. The sort of truths that divides theists and atheists, tend to be of this irrelevant sort.

Dawkins may have greater scientific knowledge than William L. Craig, but WLC might just be healthier and happier.
And being healthy and happy, doesn't particularly indicate that you're very knowledgable regarding scientific matters. And being very knowledgable in scientific matters doesn't indicate you're very happy and healthy.

In fact depending on what degrees one's own personal health and happiness is dependent of being a part of tightly knit community, having a support net-work, seeing life as something ultimately meaningful, being a part of a religious community might be the ideal choice.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 06:26 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:44 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  “Part of being healthy is getting regular checkups from qualified medical professionals accredited in their specialties, and insuring if need be that I make the necessary life style changes to keep me healthy."

As a corrollary to what Gwaithmir asked would you go to a witch doctor, alternative medicine “doctor” or faith healer for your regular checkups? More importantly would you follow their recommendations for that horrible pain in your lower intestines or would you see a qualified gastroenterologist?

That is the choice you are giving us when you ask if we want the truth or to be happy, it is an inane question. Stop asking it, it is as ridiculous as making you choose between a medical professional and a quack.

Not really. In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health.

Since I'm concerned with that which is conducive to my physical health, it's best to get advice from specialist, and doctors who have the appropriate training, and knowledge in these areas for checkups, and revisions. What I don't need though is the doctors or specialist level of knowledge of my diagnosis and treatments, trusting them and following their advice would suffice.

Some knowledge plays an entirely functional role in whats conducive to an individuals health and happiness, I grant that, most of it doesn't. The sort of truths that divide theists and atheists, tend to be of this irrelevant sort.

Dawkins may have greater science knowledge than William L. Craig, but WLC might just be healthier and happier.
And being healthy and happy, doesn't particularly indicate that you're very knowledge regarding scientific matters. And being very knowledge in scientific matters doesn't indicate you're very happy and healthy.

There is no truth to theism, as I've demonstrated repeatedly. So the truth that divides atheists and theists is the fact that theism is false. That's the truth. And if you think a person's whole worldview being contrary to reality is irrelevant, then I guess it's true what they say, ignorance is bliss.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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10-05-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I am interested in truth, and not only do I believe it's worth looking for, but that it's worth sacrificing everything for. But then again I have a religious outlook on truth, where truth has a moral end, sort of like Plato's Good, in the allegory of the cave. That truth is a directional, and not some aimless fact of the world. That's it the pure ore, at the end of dark mine. This could all be superstitious non-sense of course, religious Kool-aid, but absent of such a belief as to why any individual would seek it, is not very clear, hence why the question is proposed to non-religious types here.

Maybe it's not very clear because we define "truth" differently. Many feel truth is no more than confirmation bias. "It just feels right" or "See? doesn't that make sense"?.
The veracity of the claim for them has little meaning next to the truthiness of it.
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10-05-2017, 06:34 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 05:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 09:06 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Where did that "than" come from? It isn't a zero-sum game. Attempting to "grasp the universe as it really is" is one of the foundations of my happiness, and I believe it to be an essential part of health (both physical and mental) as well.


I never said it is a zero sum game, all that matters for my question is, that you can grasp the universe as it really is and be unhealthy and unhappy.

You can also be happy and healthy without grasping the universe and reality for what it is.

It's a question of importance, as to whether you hold truth as more important than happiness or happiness as that of ultimate importance.


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Again you keep bringing up this dichotomy between happiness and truth. Why? I know many truths about the world including some that I don't like, like the fact that the majority of my fellow humans act on faith in the revelations of an invisible magic being instead of reason, and yet I'm happy. If knowing the truth about the world makes one unhappy so that they need to retreat into a fantasy world, then they have some serious psychological issues.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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10-05-2017, 06:35 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Life's too short to get involved with Tomasia anymore. While I won't put him on ignore, I frankly don't see the point in discussing anything with him since he seems too far gone.

When religious, or political, ideology over-rides common sense and the open willingness to learn, all hope is lost. And, IMO, hope is lost with Tomasia.
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10-05-2017, 06:35 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 07:50 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Shouldn't it be how do we discern what makes us healthy and happy? Discern whats conducive to our personal well being, and not necessarily whether our beliefs are true or not?

Sounds fine in the abstract, but we all know that believers can't leave it at that. Are your beliefs conducive to other's well being when pushed down their throats in the form of laws? Is brainwashing kids conducive to societies well being?
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10-05-2017, 06:36 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There is no truth to theism, as I've demonstrated repeatedly. So the truth that divides atheists and theists is the fact that theism is false. That's the truth. And if you think a person's whole worldview being contrary to reality is irrelevant, then I guess it's true what they say, ignorance is bliss.

In this case, it's entirely irrelevant to one's health and happiness.

So perhaps you mean relevant to something else, though what that is, is not clear? If it's not about health and happiness, that what is it relevant for, that is more important than one's health and happiness.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(Much as it pains me to post it in connection to something even slightly related to Tommyrot)





"You won't believe me when I tell you this is fantasy
Don't ask how long all this can last
The same old sun will rise and make tomorrow just like yesterday
And so your time will pass

A shelter from the storm
A room without a view
A place where you belong
And like a mother's kiss
That carries you to sleep
The ignorance is bliss

One day the wind may change and blow at your defences
And shake the ground on which you stand
One day the tide may turn and wash away your castles in the sand
And silence rule the land

A shelter from the storm
A room without a view
A place where you belong
And like a mother's kiss
That carries you to sleep
The ignorance is bliss

One day the wind will change and blow away your wonderland
Blue skies will soon be overcast
One day the tide will turn and wash away your castles in the sand
And you'll find peace... at last"

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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10-05-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
The logic is a bit terrifying also.

If you start being religious, then you become moral, apparently. Why? Because you believe you get a big reward for it in heaven, and possibly also fear going to hell.

So now you're being "moral" out of personal gain, or fear.

I wonder how tomato explains all the extremely moral atheists in the world? Has he never met any atheists? I guess they are immoral to him just by definition, as they aren't in his religion.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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