Why do you desire truth?
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10-05-2017, 06:49 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:35 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Sounds fine in the abstract, but we all know that believers can't leave it at that. Are your beliefs conducive to other's well being when pushed down their throats in the form of laws?

They can be, depending on whats being pushed. A belief in inalienable rights endowed upon us a by a creator, is a religious belief, and serves as foundational principle for a variety of laws that might be conducive to other's well being.

Quote:Is brainwashing kids conducive to societies well being?

Those brainwashed kids, in the churches I grew up with are outstanding members of society, first generation immigrants, who transitioned well into the greater society, outstanding neighbors, and community members. Well adjusted, happy and healthy.

Produce more of them, and we'd all be in better shape. Other brainwashed children of another type might not be so productive.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  From a biological standpoint, natural selection favored minds with variety of natural tendencies, confirmation biases, negatively bias, etc.. and not minds absent of such tendencies so that they can draw closer models of reality. Natural selection favored minds that when it comes to beliefs we value, vs any competing reality that undermines them, to favor that which we value over that which is true. Our basic biology, seems to be a great admirer of deceptions.

Every time you talk about evolution, you get it wrong. Go read an actual science book.

Only what is available is selected from. There is nothing "favored", there is no discrimination. It is that which works better than the other things available that has more success. It is likely the case that minds with fewer biases are favored over those with strong ones that mislead.

Quote:As for decisions go, decisions that require considerations on our part, only a limited set of information is required for most of them. And as far as decisions that promote our survival and reproduction, all that's required is the actual behaviors and actions conducive to it, not the amount of thought. It doesn't matter if you were driven to those particular actions through deceptions, biases, or ignorance, the result is the same.

No, they are not the same because the decisions won't be the same.
The amount of thought is going to change the outcome.

Try thinking clearly for a change.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-05-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 06:35 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Sounds fine in the abstract, but we all know that believers can't leave it at that. Are your beliefs conducive to other's well being when pushed down their throats in the form of laws?

They can be, depending on whats being pushed. A belief in inalienable rights endowed upon us a by a creator, is a religious belief, and serves as foundational principle for a variety of laws that might be conducive to other's well being.

"might be" until someone decides that the creator has changed his mind...

Quote:Is brainwashing kids conducive to societies well being?

Those brainwashed kids, in the churches I grew up with are outstanding members of society, first generation immigrants, who transitioned well into the greater society, outstanding neighbors, and community members. Well adjusted, happy and healthy.

Produce more of them, and we'd all be in better shape. Other brainwashed children of another type might not be so productive.

So, the ends justify the means, Huh?. But I can point to many who are the opposite of what you describe. And, of course, you probably only say they are because it makes you feel happy and healthy.
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10-05-2017, 06:58 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Is brainwashing kids conducive to societies well being?

Those brainwashed kids, in the churches I grew up with are outstanding members of society, first generation immigrants, who transitioned well into the greater society, outstanding neighbors, and community members. Well adjusted, happy and healthy.

Produce more of them, and we'd all be in better shape. Other brainwashed children of another type might not be so productive.

URGH, really?

People don't need church and its subsequent brainwashing to be good people, what you're essentially saying here is you'd pick deliberately misleading children and telling them to basically obey the church without question, all for something isn't even taught IN church itself. Like the priest/whomever doesn't say "this is how to be a good person" , people figure that out themselves, if some of them do, because due to the churches influence many, not all I may add, but MANY of those brainwashed by the church grow up to intolerant assholes, only being tolerable of those of the same faith/general background as they.

I'd rather have a child learn everything it can, of its own accord, and end up being a "bad person" than purposely filling my kids head with total GARBAGE, because you deem it to be better for society? Get fucked on that on.

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10-05-2017, 06:59 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 06:35 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Sounds fine in the abstract, but we all know that believers can't leave it at that. Are your beliefs conducive to other's well being when pushed down their throats in the form of laws?

They can be, depending on whats being pushed. A belief in inalienable rights endowed upon us a by a creator, is a religious belief, and serves as foundational principle for a variety of laws that might be conducive to other's well being.

Quote:Is brainwashing kids conducive to societies well being?

Those brainwashed kids, in the churches I grew up with are outstanding members of society, first generation immigrants, who transitioned well into the greater society, outstanding neighbors, and community members. Well adjusted, happy and healthy.

Produce more of them, and we'd all be in better shape. Other brainwashed children of another type might not be so productive.

Look at the great shape America's in having these believers in politics. They can say that anything is god's will and millions will take them at their word. They lie, admit they're lying, but are lying for god's glory. Yeah, like we need more of them.
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10-05-2017, 07:00 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 09:06 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Where did that "than" come from? It isn't a zero-sum game. Attempting to "grasp the universe as it really is" is one of the foundations of my happiness, and I believe it to be an essential part of health (both physical and mental) as well.

(10-05-2017 05:06 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I never said it is a zero sum game, all that matters for my question is, that you can grasp the universe as it really is and be unhealthy and unhappy.

You can also be happy and healthy without grasping the universe and reality for what it is.

It's a question of importance, as to whether you hold truth as more important than happiness or happiness as that of ultimate importance.

Weasel words. You clearly did phrase your question as an either/or.

My answer, however: A happiness that is grounded in delusion is tied to that delusion, and will likely be lost if the delusion is ever critically examined. A happiness that is grounded in reality is not as vulnerable. Accordingly, reality-based happiness has more lasting value.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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10-05-2017, 07:02 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  The logic is a bit terrifying also.

If you start being religious, then you become moral, apparently. Why? Because you believe you get a big reward for it in heaven, and possibly also fear going to hell.

So now you're being "moral" out of personal gain, or fear.

I wonder how tomato explains all the extremely moral atheists in the world? Has he never met any atheists? I guess they are immoral to him just by definition, as they aren't in his religion.

It seems that my line of questioning, has led a number of individuals like yourself to ascribe a variety of beliefs to me that I don't personally hold. Such as, I don't believe believing in God makes one more moral, or that atheists are any less moral than theist. In fact if I did believe such things, it would be quite problematic to my religious beliefs.

Nor do I think morality is driven by rewards in the afterlife. For me personally the desire to be good, is driven by a desire to live and love, like Christ, even if I'm personally quite far from that. And all other life appears unfulfilled, in light of that which animates his. I'm driven by a desire to posses that pearl of his, that truth of his, that a man would give his whole life for.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 07:05 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor do I think morality is driven by rewards in the afterlife. For me personally the desire to be good, is driven by a desire to live and love, like Christ, even if I'm personally quite far from that. And all other life appears unfulfilled, in light of that which animates his. I'm driven by a desire to posses that pearl of his, that truth of his, that a man would give his whole life for.

Appearances can be deceiving, especially once you deceived yourself.
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10-05-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
I don't get it Tommy. You don't choose what you believe - depending on how intelligent you are, you are convinced by evidence, or by bullshit in your case. So why are you so desperate to claim that believing untrue things can be good for you?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-05-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:00 AM)Astreja Wrote:  My answer, however: A happiness that is grounded in delusion is tied to that delusion, and will likely be lost if the delusion is ever critically examined. A happiness that is grounded in reality is not as vulnerable. Accordingly, reality-based happiness has more lasting value.

Possibly, possibly not. Reality can be very fleeting thing, happiness grounded in aimless reality may be lost with a change in the breeze. Where as the delusion might be a belief in something eternal, and imperishable.

But regardless, there's also the fact, that the chances of losing those deceptions might being exceedingly slim. A point well made, if we are to consider myself as the delusional one, and you or any other atheists as the non-delusional reality based one. If I am in fact delusional, if my religious beliefs are false, the likelihood of me personally losing those beliefs is extremely low. A point that atheists like Heath_Tierney concur by indicating that when it comes to me, all hope is lost.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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