Why do you desire truth?
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10-05-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 05:44 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  “Part of being healthy is getting regular checkups from qualified medical professionals accredited in their specialties, and insuring if need be that I make the necessary life style changes to keep me healthy."

As a corrollary to what Gwaithmir asked would you go to a witch doctor, alternative medicine “doctor” or faith healer for your regular checkups? More importantly would you follow their recommendations for that horrible pain in your lower intestines or would you see a qualified gastroenterologist?

That is the choice you are giving us when you ask if we want the truth or to be happy, it is an inane question. Stop asking it, it is as ridiculous as making you choose between a medical professional and a quack.
Not really. In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health.

You are just full of contradictions aren’t you? You simply cannot see all your mental errors.

By choosing a “holy man” instead of a qualified, accredited source, you’re not prioritizing your health.

There is an unfathomable chasm between saying, “I don’t want to have cancer” and saying, “I don’t want to know if I have cancer.” Drinking Beverage

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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10-05-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  I don't get it Tommy. You don't choose what you believe - depending on how intelligent you are, you are convinced by evidence, or by bullshit in your case. So why are you so desperate to claim that believing untrue things can be good for you?

I don't believe that, as I indicated in a previous post, one of my main religious beliefs, is that beliefs that truth and the good life are intrinsically linked, that truth has a moral direction. Truth in my religious view is matter of ultimate importance.

If I wasn't religious, then I'd very little choice but to concede that untrue things can be good for you. I'd also have to reconsider the value of truth. And whether or not my happiness and health are more important than it, etc... Hence the OP, and my line of questioning.

What I do find very interesting is the level in which the point I find as an inevitable position for an unbeliever is the one most resisted, while one promoting, or at some level supportive of my entirely religious belief, is the one being defended by unbelievers.

Which seems to me to indicate that my religious beliefs here are possibly true, or possibly that the atheists here have been drinking the religious kool-aid regarding the value of truth, for so long, that they can't give it up.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:21 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not really. In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health.

You are just full of contradictions aren’t you? You simply cannot see all your mental errors.

By choosing a “holy man” instead of a qualified, accredited source, you’re not prioritizing your health.
huh?

I though that exactly what I said, when I wrote: " In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health."

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 07:21 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  You are just full of contradictions aren’t you? You simply cannot see all your mental errors.

By choosing a “holy man” instead of a qualified, accredited source, you’re not prioritizing your health.
huh?

I though that exactly what I said, when I wrote: " In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health."

Do I have to spell it out for you every time?

You are a theist, you believe in witch doctors, ergo you are not prioritizing your health. Get it?

(Enough, I have better things to do, I’m heading out to go kill some Lionfish for dinner.)

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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10-05-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If I wasn't religious, then I'd very little choice but to concede that untrue things can be good for you. I'd also have to reconsider the value of truth. And whether or not my happiness and health are more important than it, etc... Hence the OP, and my line of questioning.

But why? What has religion got to do with using your bloody brain? [well, aside from religion meaning you DONT use it well enough apparently.]. Its up to you, religion or not, to decide what is "good" for you.

"Truth" is defined to be what is: "that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality". So if you define Truth in some sort religious context, you're already lying to yourself, for the sake of your own happiness it seems, because religion is based up fiction and not fact/reality.

You just seem to value the simple life, not "the good life" as you keep putting it. Leaving everything that has any potential meaning to a person, in the hands of your god, and just wandering on in blissful ignorance.

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10-05-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 06:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 06:26 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  There is no truth to theism, as I've demonstrated repeatedly. So the truth that divides atheists and theists is the fact that theism is false. That's the truth. And if you think a person's whole worldview being contrary to reality is irrelevant, then I guess it's true what they say, ignorance is bliss.

In this case, it's entirely irrelevant to one's health and happiness.

So perhaps you mean relevant to something else, though what that is, is not clear? If it's not about health and happiness, that what is it relevant for, that is more important than one's health and happiness.
No. I was being facesious. A happiness that is dependent on one's delusion is a false happiness just as a worldview which is not based on truth is a false worldview. And by definition a person who is delusional is not healthy. His happiness is tied up with not learning the truth.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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10-05-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 07:00 AM)Astreja Wrote:  My answer, however: A happiness that is grounded in delusion is tied to that delusion, and will likely be lost if the delusion is ever critically examined. A happiness that is grounded in reality is not as vulnerable. Accordingly, reality-based happiness has more lasting value.

Possibly, possibly not. Reality can be very fleeting thing, happiness grounded in aimless reality may be lost with a change in the breeze. Where as the delusion might be a belief in something eternal, and imperishable.

But regardless, there's also the fact, that the chances of losing those deceptions might being exceedingly slim. A point well made, if we are to consider myself as the delusional one, and you or any other atheists as the non-delusional reality based one. If I am in fact delusional, if my religious beliefs are false, the likelihood of me personally losing those beliefs is extremely low. A point that atheists like Heath_Tierney concur by indicating that when it comes to me, all hope is lost.

So Ignorance is bliss?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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10-05-2017, 08:03 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  No. I was being facesious. A happiness that is dependent on one's delusion is a false happiness just as a worldview which is not based on truth is a false worldview. And by definition a person who is delusional is not healthy. His happiness is tied up with not learning the truth.

If happiness is the objective, it doesn't really matter whether it's actually true or false. If it's false happiness, with a very little to no risk of losing it, ( or discovering that it's false) it's pretty much indistinguishable from true happiness.

If happiness is the ultimate aim here, than such a false happiness, with low risk, is a very good option.

As for as delusions being unhealthy by definition. That's not delusions the way atheists might use the term, but delusions that are the symptom of any number of mental disorders, like bipolar disorder, etc... False beliefs, that are product of your society and environment, the valued beliefs of your community, are not considered delusions by mental health professionals. It tends to beliefs that are outside of those parameters, that are rendered delusional by definition.

Atheists such as yourself are not appealing to the clinical definition when referring to christians, and religious folks as delusional. In fact such religious believers may be models of health and happiness.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:27 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 07:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  huh?

I though that exactly what I said, when I wrote: " In choosing a witch doctor instead, I'm not prioritizing my health."

Do I have to spell it out for you every time?

You are a theist, you believe in witch doctors, ergo you are not prioritizing your health. Get it?

(Enough, I have better things to do, I’m heading out to go kill some Lionfish for dinner.)

Ah okay, so a strawman?

I'm a theist, I don't believe that going to a witch doctor for health related questions, is preferable to going to an actual doctor, or trained professional on matters of physical health.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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10-05-2017, 08:19 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 07:05 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  Appearances can be deceiving, especially once you deceived yourself.

I think it's interesting to consider the situation we find ourselves in. You have one mind that sees another mind as deceived, while the mind that's being accused of being deceived doesn't see itself as deceived.

Your mind perhaps sees my mind as deceived, while my mind doesn't see myself as deceived. But let's just consider this in light of you observation being right, that my mind is deceived.

What does that say about my mind, and perhaps even minds like mine in general?
That minds can be incapable of seeing their own deceptions in certain areas, yet can operate quite functionally, and with good results in every other area of one's life. And those deceptions might just be entirely impenetrable.

I can try and muster as much energy as possible, asking you to help me see that I am deceived, and the end result would likely be null. Regardless of how hard I try, and how much effort you try to put in. And being that no mind is particularly unique, this should say a lot about minds and deceptions, if your claims about mine are true.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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