Why do you desire truth?
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10-05-2017, 04:29 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Quote:Obtuse? Obtuse? If obtuse is any angle > 90 then he's like... 720?





Wink

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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10-05-2017, 06:17 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 07:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 07:05 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  “It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying or reassuring.” (Carl Sagan) Consider

Is it far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to be happy and healthy?

I get what your saying. Believing relieves anxiety.

Most of us draw a line at making laws based on you releasing anxiety. be it liberal or theist anxiety removal by not facing reality.
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10-05-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Tomasia,

Is it important for you to actually eat food, or is poison just as good? Is it important for you to form a relationship with someone who is a good fit for you, or just anyone?

I don't actually expect you to answer these questions. I just wanted to remind you that we all live with a desire to know the truth, how things actually are, not some alternative that we cannot act upon. The way things actually are matters, even if we choose to ignore the information.

In the physical world, pretending an unwanted truth isn't real isn't an effective means of solving problems. Falling off of a cliff still kills you, even if you don't believe the experience is real. Imagine the stupidity and futility of the belief that the victim of the fall should only have chosen to believe something more happy than that they were falling off a cliff.

Although I don't buy the premise that the reality of our world is bleak, I think Atheists just try to keep their beliefs consistent with reality. It is interesting that some religious people don't seem to mind making an exception for their faith, but I think it's ultimately silly and misguided.

So, do you think your beliefs about faith and religion are in line with the way this world really works, or do you not care?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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10-05-2017, 10:18 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 08:37 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  ... Is it important for you to actually eat food, or is poison just as good ...

Well, Mr. D. Phoenix I was wondering if you were still a voice in this wilderness - glad to see you're alive and bitingly erudite as usual! While I think your points will never disturb the fossilized neurons of the OP the wider audience here appreciates your insights. Drop a word in more often.
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11-05-2017, 12:19 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 10:18 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Well, Mr. D. Phoenix I was wondering if you were still a voice in this wilderness - glad to see you're alive and bitingly erudite as usual! Drop a word in more often.

Thanks Airportkid. It has been a while. I thought about leaving the community altogether, but now I see I just needed to take a break. I genuinely enjoy reading what you have to say as well. I hope to post more often in the future.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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11-05-2017, 06:57 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(11-05-2017 12:19 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 10:18 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Well, Mr. D. Phoenix I was wondering if you were still a voice in this wilderness - glad to see you're alive and bitingly erudite as usual! Drop a word in more often.

Thanks Airportkid. It has been a while. I thought about leaving the community altogether, but now I see I just needed to take a break. I genuinely enjoy reading what you have to say as well. I hope to post more often in the future.

Great to see you back, I still consider one of your posts to be the best I ever read here.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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11-05-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 08:37 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Is it important for you to actually eat food, or is poison just as good? Is it important for you to form a relationship with someone who is a good fit for you, or just anyone?

I don't actually expect you to answer these questions. I just wanted to remind you that we all live with a desire to know the truth, how things actually are, not some alternative that we cannot act upon. The way things actually are matters, even if we choose to ignore the information.

I keep getting the similar criticism, no matter how often I concede the functional ways in which certain truths play in particular objectives. Since I care about my health, its important for me to know the reality of what I am eating. Since I want to avoid eating poisonous items that negatively effect my health, I would like to know if something I’m about to potentially eat is poisonous. Now on other hand knowing the age of the earth, the shape of the earth, whether evolution is true, is of no real personal consequence for someone looking to eat healthy. A creationist can make just as good choices regarding their eating habits as an individual who concedes these facts. ( it should also be said, that a person can know all the nutritional facts, the age of the earth, that evolution is true, and still live an unhealthy lifestyle)

If we concede, that reality is aimless, intrinsically meaningless, has no intrinsic value, as a result neither does truth. It’s more a tool, that can be used for any variety of aims, and goals, positive and negative, and neutral.

In fact many people here seem to at least tacitly acknowledge, that if one’s ultimate goal is to be healthy and happy, the bulk of the beliefs that separate theist and atheists, are entirely relevant to the goal here.

There seems to be some derision by atheists directed at individuals who might prioritize their health and happiness over truth, but the exact nature of why that is it’s never clear, nor why these individuals themselves would prioritize truth over their own health and happiness.

Quote:Although I don't buy the premise that the reality of our world is bleak, I think Atheists just try to keep their beliefs consistent with reality. It is interesting that some religious people don't seem to mind making an exception for their faith, but I think it's ultimately silly and misguided.

So, do you think your beliefs about faith and religion are in line with the way this world really works, or do you not care?

I wholeheartedly believe that my religious beliefs, my religious worldview aligns with the way the world works, offering me considerable clarity in navigating the confines of my personal life, relationship, community, contributes to my health and happiness, etc…. SO yes I do hold that my religious views are aligned with reality.

Of course you’ll disagree, but you know what, even if I was wrong, so what? If reality is aimless, has no intrinsic value, or meaning, then it does not matter one bit. If the unbeliever’s contrasting worldview is true, then truth here is entirely valueless. It’s not going to improve my overall health and happiness one bit.

Now think about the value you place on truth. Do you value truth as an end in and of itself, or do you value truth as a means to an end? What end is that? Which end ultimately matters here for you, if it’s not your health and happiness?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-05-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 01:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  You think happiness is all there is? Your personal happiness? It seems like a selfish philosophy.

Not really. Perhaps it makes me happy to do unselfish things for others. Happy to volunteer my time for the less fortunate etc...

Quote:I prefer science over bullshit because it makes me happy to see charlatans exposed for the liars they are. I despise all those who try to fool other people for their personal comfort or for some political aim, and religious leaders are nearly all doing either one or the other. Even those who are sincere are mostly idiots who do more harm than good.

I prefer science because the world is more wonderful and fascinating than anyone could imagine, and religion just offers easy non-answers designed to make me stop asking questions. Fuck them I say.

And the irony is I'm explaining this to you,

The irony here is, you criticizing me for prioritizing happiness, while indicating above that you like science, because it makes you personally happy and contributes to your sense of wonder.

You indicate you derive happiness from exposing charlatans, and you like science, because it's a valuable tool for you to use for this purpose. You indicate that you enjoy the feeling of wonder, and for you looking at the world through a scientific perspective helps you feel a great deal of wonder, and fascination, unimaginable by any other means.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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11-05-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(11-05-2017 08:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  You think happiness is all there is? Your personal happiness? It seems like a selfish philosophy.

Not really. Perhaps it makes me happy to do unselfish things for others. Happy to volunteer my time for the less fortunate etc...

Quote:I prefer science over bullshit because it makes me happy to see charlatans exposed for the liars they are. I despise all those who try to fool other people for their personal comfort or for some political aim, and religious leaders are nearly all doing either one or the other. Even those who are sincere are mostly idiots who do more harm than good.

I prefer science because the world is more wonderful and fascinating than anyone could imagine, and religion just offers easy non-answers designed to make me stop asking questions. Fuck them I say.

And the irony is I'm explaining this to you,

The irony here is, you criticizing me for prioritizing happiness, while indicating above that you like science, because it makes you personally happy and contributes to your sense of wonder.

You indicate you derive happiness from exposing charlatans, and you like science, because it's a valuable tool for you to use for this purpose. You indicate that you enjoy the feeling of wonder, and for you looking at the world through a scientific perspective helps you feel a great deal of wonder, and fascination, unimaginable by any other means.

There are also times when truth is unpleasant to hear. For religious folk it's that their religion is based on myths.

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11-05-2017, 08:38 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 11:50 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Why ask us any questions at all if you're not interested in the truth?

I'm personally interested in truth because my religious worldview, has brainwashed me into believing truth is liberation, that truth is good, the source of ultimate meaning and purpose, that it's God himself.

If I was an unbeliever all that goes out the window of course, and that's the basis of my question. As to why an unbeliever such as your would prioritize truth, over your health and happiness, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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