Why do you desire truth?
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11-05-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do you desire truth?

Many atheists seem to draw a distinction between their own desire for truth, and the desires of theists. They’ll likely add a serious of qualifiers, such as scientific, evidence based, objective, etc….. But one answer that I always have trouble getting an honest response about, is this:

Being that we are all biological creatures, and all desires and their appeasement are biological in nature, what biological desire is appeased by your desire for truth? And if you grant the premise here, that desires are biological, as well as the satisfaction of them, then truth is a means to an end. If truth makes you feel secure, secure in your marriage, than it’s a sense of security that you desire, and truth in this particular instance is a means of acquiring that. If it’s because truth offers survival advantages, it’s survival you desire, and truth is a means for that, etc..

So how would you explain your desire for truth, in relationship to you being a biological creature, and in particular, in regards to how you might distinguish your desire for truth, from theists, and religious folks in general?

Why do you personally desire scientific truths, what is this biologically appeasing for you?

The scientific method is the only way we have of finding the truth about the world around us. It's education. It's a useful tool. It's self-correcting. Religions starts with what you want to be true, and then it's all apologetics and mental masturbation. Both sides may make people happy. But one is a blind alley.
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11-05-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(11-05-2017 01:29 PM)kemo boy Wrote:  The scientific method is the only way we have of finding the truth about the world around us. It's education. It's a useful tool. It's self-correcting.

I would add logic and careful scholarship as methods of finding the truth -- which may or may not include science to support them.
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11-05-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(11-05-2017 01:52 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(11-05-2017 01:29 PM)kemo boy Wrote:  The scientific method is the only way we have of finding the truth about the world around us. It's education. It's a useful tool. It's self-correcting.

I would add logic and careful scholarship as methods of finding the truth -- which may or may not include science to support them.

I would add that without logic there is no truth. Yes

#sigh
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11-05-2017, 05:13 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
I seek a better, a reason for it all. I can't say yes there isn't a god, or yes there is a god. I want to know more, but the reasons I hear given to me by these Christians of faith are just lie upon lie. It isn't that it's 'biologically pleasing' that makes no sense. Biologically means it's in my DNA or blood to want the truth. No, it's my choice to know the truth.
If it was biological, you could say the same for faith, it's in our DNA to want to have faith. It isn't. It's a choice. And I chose to question everything rather than roll over and take it.

"Governments don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking That is against their interests.
They want obedient workers people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork And just dumb enough to passively accept it."

- George Carlin
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11-05-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do you desire truth?

Being that we are all biological creatures, and all desires and their appeasement are biological in nature, what biological desire is appeased by your desire for truth?
I prefer lies, they are much more fun.
I've gotto say that reality sux somewhat. It would be fun if we could be psychic or have telekinesis or fly or do shit like the Xmen or characters in Heroes do, but alas no matter how much I believe, or insist on believing in lies, the truth eventually bites me in the arse.
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12-05-2017, 06:48 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(10-05-2017 01:20 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Having skimmed through this thread, it seems like your primary concern is what system of thought brings you the most comfort. I would suggest that this is a very dangerous path to walk down. The truth is a very valuable thing, even if it means taking off rose coloured glasses.

As a pertinent example, let's suppose there is a suicide bomber operating under the pretense that Allah will grant him ten virgins in heaven upon blowing himself up for a Jihad. He may be very happy with this prospect. Now, if you successfully show him with basic skills of logic and reason where his belief system is flawed, and he accepts what you say, you may have destroyed his short term hope of virgins in paradise, but now he has the opportunity to build a new perspective, based on truth.

See what I'm saying?

Why is camouflage part of the animal kingdom? Why do poisonous berries grow bright and plump? Why don't blowfish have their spikes out all the time? Why do carnivores hide in the dark, waiting to spring? It's because deception can kill, knowing the truth can save and not knowing can be disastrous. The desire for truth, I would say, is indeed, biologically based. We simply have highly developed mental capabilities, so that our search for truth can be either metaphysical, which is the case for you, or empirical, which is the case for us.

Science and Empiricism are an entire exercise in finding what is true in fact. You are familiar with the scientific method? I hope so... because it has consistently yielded for us, truthful results since it's inception. I have a hypothesis, I test it, it proves false or true. If true, the scientific community immediately jumps on it trying to produce results contrary to mine. If results from multiple tests are corroborated, and the hypothesis can't be falsified, the hypothesis can move from prediction to theory. If not, it is discarded as false.

Regards!

Sorry, I had meant to reply when I first read your post, but I lost track of it.

No matter how many times I attempt to nip this objection in the butt, it just keeps reappearing. Truth, Untruth, Deceptions, etc…. have no intrinsic value. Any value afforded to it, is by contextualizing it, turning into a function for a particular aim, in world of limitless aims, limitless amounts of truths, and untruths.

Let’s think in terms of survival. Survival is dependent in our actions and behaviors. Our beliefs are only important to the extent that their conducive to getting us to act and behave accordingly. Let says in a particular context and environment, getting people to believe (x) falsehood is conducive towards survival at that particular junction, and x (truth-hood) is not. In terms of survival believing the falsehood is more important.

Let’s say you’re a part of tribe, that needs to get men on a ship through a storm, to fight an enemy. If you’re not able to get them to do so your tribe will likely die. Believing the truth, that the weather is entirely uncertain, and unpredictable, will keep the men from getting on the ship, and leading to your tribes extinction. Where as believing the falsehood, that the weather can be made to work in their favor, by offering supplication to the Gods, will get them motivated to fight and get on the ship, there by saving the tribe. In this example the falsehood is valuable, while the truth is detrimental.

Let’s take “free-will”, with the assumption that the determinist are right, and free-will does not exist. Has the false belief in “free-will” been detrimental ? probably not. Where as feeding determinism, might be detrimental. Some studies have shown when students are fed pro-determinism perspectives their more likely to cheat than when fed a pro-freewill perspective. In the case the falsehood might be more valuable, and the truth is detrimental.

Now listen, pointing to others example in which the truth might be more beneficial, doesn’t negate my argument here. But when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth. And if, as seems to be the case here, if we’re treating truth as a means, and not an end. We can think of the ends exclusively.

If the end is to avoid danger, it could now be said, that we should hold beliefs that are not dangerous. Or if health and happiness are the end, than we should hold beliefs conducive to our health and happiness. It doesn’t matter whether those beliefs are true or not, as long as their conducive to the ends in question.

If truth is a means, you can’t say you want the truth, because since it’s a means, it begs the question for what end? It’s the end that you actually desire.

Quote:So what I'm getting at here is, if you knew you were living a lie... knew it to your core... would you be happy? Would you continue? When I knew Christianity was false, I kept going to church for five months to appease those around me, and I was miserable, because I knew I was living a lie.

Christianity requires you to believe that it's true. If I were to believe it wasn't true, I couldn't be a christian anymore, regardless if I wanted to or not, the belief is lost, by seeing it as false. I had a friend who lost his faith a few years ago, and he was unhappy as an unbeliever, and had hoped he'd be able to find a way to believe again, to believe that Christianity were true, and he eventually was able to convince himself of truth of it, and be a believer again, and he's happier for it.

Now another theists, turned unbeliever might have a different experience, when they lost their belief, it might have left a bad taste in their mouth for their previous life as a theist. They might believe they were robbed, cheated, lied to, missed out on life etc... become angry with the religion they were born into, hold it as harmful, and need of being eradicated. Maybe this individuals eventually becomes happier as an unbeliever, then he ever was as a theist. Everyone's mileage varies.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 06:56 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth.

What a fucked-up absolutist view!

"Intrinsic value" is a myth. All value is subjective. Reality, and truth, only require that we personally value them. That's it. That's all.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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12-05-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Truth, Untruth, Deceptions, etc…. have no intrinsic value.

I'd say the intrinsic value of truth is truth itself and that it isn't incumbent on anything outside of it. It doesn't need a single thing to exist. Even if there were no consciousness, the fact there'd be no consciousness would be true. For me, truth doesn't exist as a 'something' you can mould to fit a world view, but a world view should fit into the truth. Truth, just is.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-05-2017, 07:10 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(11-05-2017 11:19 AM)Astreja Wrote:  Indeed, Tomasia, you are being profoundly disingenuous with your question. You keep on trying to drag us back to a false dichotomy where one must choose between science and happiness.

No, I never presented as mutually exclusive. In fact I indicated that I not only hold my beliefs as true, but that they also support my health and happiness. Truth and happiness are not mutually exclusive, but their not synonymous either. It's like asking is it more important to be good than smart. Which doesn't mean that good people can't be smart. In this case it's like asking, would you rather have all your beliefs be true, or would your rather have all your beliefs make you healthy and happy.

Quote:Virtually everything that I enjoy doing and that adds meaning to my life is rooted somehow in a scientific principle or enhanced by a technology that originated in scientific research. In contrast, religion has not added any unique value at all to my life.

Sure, in fact all of us can enjoy the same technologies, etc.. without having any real knowledge of the science behind them. You'd just being enjoying the fruits of someone else's labor. I can enjoy my iPhone just as much as you can, without knowing much of anything about the engineering, and development behind it. In fact my little nephews who believes falsely that their iPhones came from Santa, are perhaps even enjoying their toys more than us.

Quote:It is my belief that despite your protestations to the contrary, you have come to this forum specifically to annoy non-believers and to play passive-aggressive mind games.

May you lose your faith and never regain it.

This is a fairly innocuous thread. If this is the sort of topic, and views that annoy you, get under your skin, illicit emotional responses, than I'm not sure what to say.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Tomasia why do you pose the questions you did in your first post, what is your goal?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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