Why do you desire truth?
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12-05-2017, 07:17 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 06:56 AM)Astreja Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth.

What a fucked-up absolutist view!

"Intrinsic value" is a myth. All value is subjective. Reality, and truth, only require that we personally value them. That's it. That's all.

Exactly. Though I'd add the reality is not a single truth, as it as infinite multitude of truths. Each of which any individual might subjectively give value to or not, discard, or render valueless.

And that the value afforded to it, is by the function (end) it serves for us. Such as the value of knowing that my wife is faithful, is the sense of security it provides.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 07:19 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 07:34 AM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is a fairly innocuous thread. If this is the sort of topic, and views that annoy you, get under your skin, illicit emotional responses, than I'm not sure what to say.

It's not innocuous. You're claiming there's no hope without your specific belief system. Laugh out load

Can you tell me why I should have hope in a God who gave me a genetic condition which resulted in a heart defect among other severe problems when I was a child?

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12-05-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 07:17 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I'd say the intrinsic value of truth is truth itself and that it isn't incumbent on anything outside of it. It doesn't need a single thing to exist. Even if there were no consciousness, the fact there'd be no consciousness would be true. For me, truth doesn't exist as a 'something' you can mould to fit a world view, but a world view should fit into the truth. Truth, just is.

A value is what we give to something, not something intrinsically possessed by the object itself. Values are subjective. Reality is not a value, reality is just what is. We give any component of it value.

Quote:Tomasia why do you pose the questions you did in your first post, what is your goal?

Primarily to hear from those who would agree that truth is a means, as to what their ultimate ends are, I don’t know what any individual atheist’s answer to that question would be, but I’m curious to gather up the responses, see if there’s some consensus, what contradictions they might pose. Figure out what their objections might be to each other, to my own perspectives, etc… To better form and articulate my own views and questions, and to develop a better grasp of the views of others. I am a bit obtuse according to some here, so it perhaps takes a little more effort and patience.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 07:32 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 07:19 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  It's not innocuous. You're claiming there's no hope without your specific belief system. Laugh out load

I never said that at all, nor do I hold such a view.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 07:45 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 07:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 07:19 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  It's not innocuous. You're claiming there's no hope without your specific belief system. Laugh out load

I never said that at all, nor do I hold such a view.

You said "when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth". You believe this as a result of your belief system.

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12-05-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 07:45 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
Quote:I never said that at all, nor do I hold such a view.

You said "when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth". You believe this as a result of your belief system.

Which is the same point reiterated by Asterjia: ""Intrinsic value" is a myth. All value is subjective."

Or in other words truth has no value in and of itself (intrinsic), only the value any individual gives to it (subjective).

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 07:45 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  You said "when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth". You believe this as a result of your belief system.

Which is the same point reiterated by Asterjia: ""Intrinsic value" is a myth. All value is subjective."

Or in other words truth has no value in and of itself (intrinsic), only the value any individual gives to it (subjective).

Which means your entire point is stupid because people can value things regardless of whether there is intrinsic value.

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12-05-2017, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 01:24 PM by kim.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ---
No matter how many times I attempt to nip this objection in the butt, it just keeps reappearing. Truth, Untruth, Deceptions, etc…. have no intrinsic value. Any value afforded to it, is by contextualizing it, turning into a function for a particular aim, in world of limitless aims, limitless amounts of truths, and untruths.

It's BUD - Nip it in the bud - as in the bud of a plant one is trying to restrict the growth of.

Unless you are an ass biter. Dodgy Laughat

---
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Now listen, pointing to others example in which the truth might be more beneficial, doesn’t negate my argument here. But when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth. And if, as seems to be the case here, if we’re treating truth as a means, and not an end. We can think of the ends exclusively.

If the end is to avoid danger, it could now be said, that we should hold beliefs that are not dangerous. Or if health and happiness are the end, than we should hold beliefs conducive to our health and happiness. It doesn’t matter whether those beliefs are true or not, as long as their conducive to the ends in question.

If truth is a means, you can’t say you want the truth, because since it’s a means, it begs the question for what end? It’s the end that you actually desire.

Evolution does not prescribe an "end" - there is no "goal", per se. If an acquired trait strengthens the possibility of a future, yippie! If that same trait elsewhere is detrimental, yer fucked.

Are you under some impression that "a desire for truth" is a trait which influences survival?
Maybe it is. If the only thing that keeps you from killing me is believing there is a god, by all means, believe away. Personally, I don't need a god to restrain a base instinct.

I've lived through several wars in my lifetime and people appear to kill each other quite readily, with or without a god. Though, I have also observed quite a few believe they will be protected by their god, I see no preference for life or death - everyone kills & dies pretty much the same.
***

To what end, you ask? To live. Isn't that enough? It is entirely enough for me. I'm grateful to be alive. I'm so fucking grateful that I strive to keep safe & healthy and informed of the world around me. I enjoy learning new things and gaining different experiences.

I'm grateful to be alive - grateful to none. I am no different than you Tomasi, except that I suspect that you are grateful to your god for being alive. I might also suspect that your god requires this gratitude.

Are you saying you don't think you would love & revere life without a god? That is preposterous.

(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Cosmo Wrote:So what I'm getting at here is, if you knew you were living a lie... knew it to your core... would you be happy? Would you continue? When I knew Christianity was false, I kept going to church for five months to appease those around me, and I was miserable, because I knew I was living a lie.

Christianity requires you to believe that it's true. If I were to believe it wasn't true, I couldn't be a christian anymore, regardless if I wanted to or not, the belief is lost, by seeing it as false. I had a friend who lost his faith a few years ago, and he was unhappy as an unbeliever, and had hoped he'd be able to find a way to believe again, to believe that Christianity were true, and he eventually was able to convince himself of truth of it, and be a believer again, and he's happier for it.

Now another theists, turned unbeliever might have a different experience, when they lost their belief, it might have left a bad taste in their mouth for their previous life as a theist. They might believe they were robbed, cheated, lied to, missed out on life etc... become angry with the religion they were born into, hold it as harmful, and need of being eradicated. Maybe this individuals eventually becomes happier as an unbeliever, then he ever was as a theist. Everyone's mileage varies.

I have met many former believers who are completely unlike the two extremes you describe above. Perhaps a deeper interaction with your fellow human beings might encompass a larger time frame. From what I have observed, nonbelief may take a while for some to completely break away - even years. For others, it may be more immediate.

Also, you are comparing the personal action of not believing with the reaction to belief itself. These are different things.

For instance, I have never been a believer and any disgust I have for religion is acquired by observation. Had I ever believed, I think I would certainly become resentful of being required to believe lies. I have also observed that resentment diminishes when one sees what a time waster it can be. We nonbelievers don't get an afterlife. Wink

Would I be an "angry atheist"? Don't know. I have observed quite a few former believers who have had their minds' raped as children. This psychological "altering" is often accompanied by physical abuse, as well. Some of the things I've encountered, which religion has been directly responsible for, is enough to make me ill.

It really is not my fight, right? I mean, this did not happen to me. But I can't stand by and watch it continue. If I do fight ... do I fight with any less anger - less passion? It isn't quite my fight but, I try to leave the anger for those who need to express it as catharsis ... I try for compassion.

As you said, "Everyone's mileage varies.". Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-05-2017, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 12:33 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Quote:Sorry, I had meant to reply when I first read your post, but I lost track of it.

Not a problem.

Quote:No matter how many times I attempt to nip this objection in the butt, it just keeps reappearing

I believe you mean 'bud'. Nip it in the bud. Lol. I did the same thing a few days ago.

Quote:Truth, Untruth, Deceptions, etc…. have no intrinsic value. Any value afforded to it, is by contextualizing it, turning into a function for a particular aim, in world of limitless aims, limitless amounts of truths, and untruths.

Value ascribed is still value. Unless you're a nihilist. Are you a nihilist?

Truth seems to be valued by animals because it keeps them alive. Regardless of whether life has any intrinsic value, life is valued by the living, so it is therefore valuable. Truth is esteemed even more so by humans because we have higher brain function.

Money is a great example of something that has ascribed value, that is incredibly valuable. Knowing the truth, that the paper itself is actually worthless, doesn't mean anything.

Quote:Let’s think in terms of survival. Survival is dependent in our actions and behaviors. Our beliefs are only important to the extent that their conducive to getting us to act and behave accordingly. Let says in a particular context and environment, getting people to believe (x) falsehood is conducive towards survival at that particular junction, and x (truth-hood) is not. In terms of survival believing the falsehood is more important.

You are going to need an incredible example to get me to agree with you.

Quote:Let’s say you’re a part of tribe, that needs to get men on a ship through a storm, to fight an enemy. If you’re not able to get them to do so your tribe will likely die. Believing the truth, that the weather is entirely uncertain, and unpredictable, will keep the men from getting on the ship, and leading to your tribes extinction. Where as believing the falsehood, that the weather can be made to work in their favor, by offering supplication to the Gods, will get them motivated to fight and get on the ship, there by saving the tribe. In this example the falsehood is valuable, while the truth is detrimental.

That's hilarious. This example could only work if you refer back to a primitive era where nothing is known about meteorology. The truth strikes a victory once again!

I remain unconvinced. The falsehood is only valuable because not enough information is available to these people who are in this situation that doesn't seem to make very much sense. Your argument seems like a bit of a strawman, deflecting away from the idea that more accurate information being available is better for survival than less.

Lol. Thinking about it. Do you know what I would do to a captain of a ship after I found out he lied to me and we went sailing into a Goddamned storm? I would throw him overboard. Why is the weather being uncertain not enough of a deterrent not to hop on the ship when it sounds like inevitable extinction lay behind me? Why am I sailing towards an enemy? What? Why do I need a supplication to a fake God to do so? Just so I feel better? Because I already hold beliefs that have little bearing on reality? How much better will my deluded belief make me feel if I end up sailing straight down the back of a 50 foot swell?

Guess we proved how much of a shit this God gives didn't we?

[Image: Sorry-kids-God-is-busy-helping-Americans...-exams.jpg]

Quote:Let’s take “free-will”, with the assumption that the determinist are right, and free-will does not exist. Has the false belief in “free-will” been detrimental ? probably not. Where as feeding determinism, might be detrimental. Some studies have shown when students are fed pro-determinism perspectives their more likely to cheat than when fed a pro-freewill perspective. In the case the falsehood might be more valuable, and the truth is detrimental.

No. I reject your first sentence. Why would I randomly decide that one is true and not the other when both are viable philosophical ideas? The body of scientific knowledge I'm aware of hasn't reconciled the free will problem yet, so neither have I.

The question of whether or not free will is illusory is ongoing, so far as I know.

It seems your examples only work in situations where not enough information is known about the system, or when referencing lofty philosophical concepts where there is not yet any truth in the first place.

Quote:Now listen, pointing to others example in which the truth might be more beneficial, doesn’t negate my argument here.

No... I can point to your one, potentially okay example, and confidently state that more information would have absolutely been better than less. It only works in a time when nothing scientific was known, and funnily enough, Natural Selection probably would have taken care of your silly tribe at sea. Pointing out a situation where a lie brought some mental comfort to these people so they hopped a ship does nothing to negate my initial point that the truth is an inherently valuable thing in the animal kingdom, as pointed out by the different deceptive adaptations of countless different animals (of which I referenced a few.)

Wait, wait wait wait I just thought of something...

... are you, as a Christian, actually trying to point out that lies are valuable? Seriously? Is that your thesis here? 'Lies are valuable for survival?'

Please tell me that's your thesis. Please please please...

... 'Cuz that would be hilarious. I'd start praying for forgiveness if I were you.

Quote:But when reality has no intrinsic value, neither does truth. And if, as seems to be the case here, if we’re treating truth as a means, and not an end. We can think of the ends exclusively.

I've already explained why life is valuable. You're right, it's not inherently valuable from a nihilistic perspective. Are you a nihilist?

Truth is a means to understanding.

Your positions seem to make very little sense. I'm struggling to make sense of anything you say, really.

Quote:Christianity requires you to believe that it's true. If I were to believe it wasn't true, I couldn't be a christian anymore, regardless if I wanted to or not,

But lies are valuable and okay. Facepalm

Quote: the belief is lost, by seeing it as false. I had a friend who lost his faith a few years ago, and he was unhappy as an unbeliever, and had hoped he'd be able to find a way to believe again, to believe that Christianity were true, and he eventually was able to convince himself of truth of it, and be a believer again, and he's happier for it.

Your friend sounds piteous to me. Happy in his delusions isn't something to smile and nod at with respect. I'm sorry. Not being able to accept and live in the real world is a sad state of affairs. Natural Selection has a way of dealing with things that don't correspond to the reality at hand. It can take a very long time sometimes, but it inevitably culls that which doesn't belong. I'm not talking about your friend. Just his ideology. In this day and age, of information saturation, Christianity will soon go bye bye. Soon people will be happy without religion all the time, because it won't exist to initially infect the minds of the susceptible in the first place.

Your friend was sad about reality because his brainwashing ran deep indeed. Needing to believe in a torturous, pestilent, sexist, murderous, nationalist asshole is quite sad from the outside looking in. Like I said, humans have higher mental faculties. Our search for truth can extend beyond survival to the metaphysical and scientific.

And in my case, I doubt your friend feels like he's living a lie when he goes to church. The same way I did. The feeling is, unpleasant.

Quote:Now another theists, turned unbeliever might have a different experience, when they lost their belief, it might have left a bad taste in their mouth for their previous life as a theist. They might believe they were robbed, cheated, lied to, missed out on life etc... become angry with the religion they were born into, hold it as harmful, and need of being eradicated. Maybe this individuals eventually becomes happier as an unbeliever, then he ever was as a theist. Everyone's mileage varies.

Happiness is valuable, and truth is valuable. I really don't know what else to say. If you value being deluded and happy more than learning how to be happy with the truth, good for you. Like I said. Watching someone be happy in their delusions is nothing respectable. It is piteous. Not having the will to face reality like it is, with some actual courage, is nothing to nod at.

Wait, if whatever makes you happy is really your life philosophy, how do you feel about murderers? Murderers are happy because they murder. We'll say he's a psychopath even. He believes what he's doing is right. He's doing it for God even. Should that be condoned?

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-05-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 12:14 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  ... are you, as a Christian, actually trying to point out that lies are valuable? Seriously? Is that your thesis here? 'Lies are valuable for survival?'

Please tell me that's your thesis. Please please please...

... 'Cuz that would be hilarious. I'd start praying for forgiveness if I were you.

So much for "The truth shall set you free," wot?

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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