Why do you desire truth?
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12-05-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Quote:So much for "The truth shall set you free," wot?

I wonder if he even realizes the position he inadvertently argued at me.

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12-05-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Tomasia, I understand you are curious.
Are you trying to find a way out?

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-05-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 12:14 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Natural Selection probably would have taken care of your silly tribe at sea. Pointing out a situation where a lie brought some mental comfort to these people so they hopped a ship does nothing to negate my initial point that the truth is an inherently valuable thing in the animal kingdom, as pointed out by the different deceptive adaptations of countless different animals (of which I referenced a few.)

This is perhaps one main area of confusion for you. It’s not truth that’s valuable here, but behavior and actions. In terms of thought, it’s not even truth, but beliefs, and the ways in which beliefs are conducive to any particular behavior beneficial to survival in a given environment.

Secondly natural selection favors efficiency, favors that which produces behaviors conducive to survival that requires the least amount of work, hence why factors like negativity bias are selected for. It favors competency more so than comprehension. Your cells don’t need comprehension to perform the variety of complex task set out before them. Biological beings with our level of comprehension, are one-off, and the one’s with moderate levels of comprehension are still a rarity. If comprehension was as favored as you seem to suggest you’d expect to be more common. In fact lifeforms with little to no real comprehension might be the ones to outlive us.

To put it another way, evolution only cares about movement, your physical response to an external threat, and not what you believe. If you acquire the truth, but it doesn’t motivate your actions accordingly, you’re dead. If man fed a lie does, he’s alive.

In fact if we consider all religions as false, from a historical perspective the role of religions are far from inconsequential. Having played a crucial role in forming communities, common purpose, values, aims, moral outlooks, societies and culture, etc… all contributing factors to survival. Evolution has historically favoreds human mind receptive to religious worldview, than one’s that are not. But perhaps you believe our future history will be much different than our past history. That natural selection from this day forward will favor those whose worldview is true, and weed out those whose worldview is false.

Beliefs influence behavior, true and false beliefs influence behaviors. Some behaviors positively contribute to survival and reproduction. Rather than acknowledging true and false beliefs can contribute positively to survival and reproduction, you seem to want to suggest a sort of absolutist position that only true beliefs can contribute positively. Which is historically false, and is bit faithist like to hold.

Quote:Your friend sounds piteous to me. Happy in his delusions isn't something to smile and nod at with respect. I'm sorry. Not being able to accept and live in the real world is a sad state of affairs. Natural Selection has a way of dealing with things that don't correspond to the reality at hand.

No, natural selection hasn’t developed a way of dealing with people with a false worldview. In fact our minds, the evolution of our brains, has likely remained untouched by natural selection for thousands of years. You’re not better fit to survive the world than he is, even if your worldview is true, and his is false. In fact there’s a good chance he might be better at it.

He’s healthy, he’s happy, has a doctorate, makes good money, has good friends, a strong community, family etc.. and his religious worldview is one that he’s unlikely to lose again, and definitely not one someone such as yourself will convince him is false. As to why someone such as yourself, would pity or feel sad for a man, whose life is privileged and good, remains unknown.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 01:29 PM)kim Wrote:  Tomasia, I understand you are curious.
Are you trying to find a way out?

Out of being religious? No, that's a lost cause. It would be like trying to find a way out of being brown. If theism in my twenties may have left room for the possibility of unbelief, at this stage in my life, all those openings have been closed.

But I do like to flirt with the idea of unbelief, what an unbelieving version of myself will look like, but it's nothing more than a thought experiment, like imagining what it would be like to grow up as a white male, in the bible belt.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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12-05-2017, 03:47 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Ok, just checking.
But you know the old saying ... Better late than never. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-05-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
It almost pains me physically to say this, but I think Tomasia makes an excellent point, above.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-05-2017, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 05:59 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Quote:This is perhaps one main area of confusion for you. It’s not truth that’s valuable here, but behavior and actions

I'm not confused. I just disagree with you, respectfully. You have set a seemingly arbitrary, entirely philosophical definition for yourself as to what truth is, and since you have done this, almost from a nihilistic perspective, you have said that truth has absolutely no value at all, or something to that effect, and that lies are just as valuable. I still don't quite understand what the hell you're trying to get at. It seems much like word salad. Behaviour and actions have motivations. Again humans just have much more developed mental capabilities so that our situational analysis, from a survival perspective, can be much deeper.

Quote:Biological beings with our level of comprehension, are one-off,

You have combed the vast sea of galaxies to confirm this I assume?

Quote:If comprehension was as favored as you seem to suggest you’d expect to be more common. In fact lifeforms with little to no real comprehension might be the ones to outlive us.

Do you need a working definition of truth?

truth: that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

A gazelle does not need my level of comprehension to understand not to go near a lion's den. He understands with whatever level of situational comprehension it has, that this would be a really bad idea.

Truth: That is a lion's den. Lion's eat me. Don't go near there.

Whatever level of comprehension a gazelle has, this is a valuable tidbit of knowledge for it to have.

Quote:To put it another way, evolution only cares about movement,

As our brains got bigger and bigger and bigger over millions of years of deviation from the common ancestor. Facepalm

SMH.

PS. Evolution doesn't actually 'care' about anything.

Quote:If you acquire the truth, but it doesn’t motivate your actions accordingly, you’re dead. If man fed a lie does, he’s alive.

So far you have only given awful examples of this.

Quote:In fact if we consider all religions as false,

That will be incredibly easy.

Quote: from a historical perspective the role of religions are far from inconsequential.

Unfortunately.

Quote:Having played a crucial role in forming communities, common purpose, values, aims, moral outlooks, societies and culture, etc… all contributing factors to survival

Community is great. Warm fuzzies all around. It also formed bass ackwards ideologies that have inhibited human progress, brought about the dark ages, burnings, stonings, wars, rapes, torture, murder, unjust trials, oppression against women, homosexuals, people of colour and people with mental and physical disabilities.

I'll find my community elsewhere I think.

Quote:That natural selection from this day forward will favor those whose worldview is true, and weed out those whose worldview is false.

No. I think it is interesting how evolution shows itself not just in biological systems, but in economic and ideological ones. Evolution is everywhere. In terms of the evolution of ideologies, people are getting smarter, and Christianity will not for long be considered palatable or reasonable to accept as true due to the literal physical mountain of historical and scientific evidence to the contrary.

It's not like people will die for their ideology, though some unfortunately do. Just naturally, over time, less and less people will be Christians, until it is nothing but a whisper of a faint memory in the corner of ancient human history. It will simply just fade away, like many untruths before it.

Quote:Beliefs influence behavior, true and false beliefs influence behaviors. Some behaviors positively contribute to survival and reproduction.

And...?

Quote:Rather than acknowledging true and false beliefs can contribute positively to survival and reproduction, you seem to want to suggest a sort of absolutist position that only true beliefs can contribute positively.

Wait, all you wanted before was an example of how truth in biological systems is valuable, which I provided. What the fuck?

I see what they mean about you now.

Okay anyways so I get it. But that's what you've been trying to say, is what I suspected earlier? So your thesis statement then is, "Lies can be as equally valuable as the truth?"

That's awesome. Cool

I would say, in the long term, typically yes the truth would be a much better thing to stand on than a lie, and that lies, over the longer term, are often exposed as such. Science insofar being the benchmark for what is absolutely true, has yielded for us a large volume of knowledge and technology which has aided our quest for survival. Religion can't even hold a candle to modern medicine.

So yeah it's better to stand on truth than lies. I still stand by that. Are you suggesting otherwise? Because if you are, I will assume that you are inherently dishonest, and that we have nothing more to talk about.

I think I am, respectfully, done talking with you after this response.

Quote:Which is historically false, and is bit faithist like to hold.

The first thing I said to you when we started our dialogue is that I think your viewpoint is a very dangerous one. I then pointed out a biological basis for why truth is a valuable thing to know (which still stands,) which was what was asked.

Now... you provided some very bad reasons, but reasons nonetheless, why people and animals should believe lies and why lies can be a good thing. I still have no idea why you're arguing this position. Are you trying to say that lies are equally valuable? I could agree with that from a purely physical perspective, from the perspective of camouflage in terms of defence. From a predatorily perspective that's why, as I said, poisonous berries grow big and bright and plump and then kill you. Correspondingly knowing the truth about those berries can save you.

But lies in terms of the sciences and history, will most certainly be weeded out by thorough scientific enquiry. It's just a matter of time. You won't have to ask a question like "If lies about God help people be well adjusted aren't they a good thing?" Because these lies won't exist to make people feel uncomfortable without them in the first place.

So... you asked why, from a biological perspective, truth is valuable, and then randomly argued some strawman for a while that lies are also valuable after a response to your initial OP was given. That's great. Lies are also valuable for survival. They are of absolutely no value to the sciences. Overall this entire conversation feels entirely pointless.

Quote:No, natural selection hasn’t developed a way of dealing with people with a false worldview. In fact our minds, the evolution of our brains, has likely remained untouched by natural selection for thousands of years. You’re not better fit to survive the world than he is, even if your worldview is true, and his is false. In fact there’s a good chance he might be better at it.

Proof? What does the evolution of our brain look like Dr. Tom? What anatomical structural changes should we see?

And again, I was talking about the evolution of ideologies, not man.

He might be... who knows really? I'm like, 26, man. I'm still kinda just winding up here. Smile

Quote:He’s healthy, he’s happy, has a doctorate, makes good money, has good friends, a strong community, family etc.. and his religious worldview is one that he’s unlikely to lose again, and definitely not one someone such as yourself will convince him is false. As to why someone such as yourself, would pity or feel sad for a man, whose life is privileged and good, remains unknown.

That's great for him. The only thing that sounds pitiable is that he needs to believe lies to hold it all together.

Anyways, I think we're done here. Responding to me would be a waste of your time, as I feel like responding to you just so that you could randomly defend lying as equally great for some reason, was a total waste of my time, so I don't recommend it.

Regards! Smile

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12-05-2017, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 12-05-2017 05:53 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Quote:It almost pains me physically to say this, but I think Tomasia makes an excellent point, above.

Edited (change of heart. Don't wanna triple post):
I thought about it after walking away, and a Christian arguing that lies are biologically just as valuable as the truth... It's actually fantastic. I suspected this might be his thesis a few posts back, and it kinda turned out it was, which is kind of cool for a Christian to say.

I agree with the point you were trying to make Tom. Biologically, deception can be just as valuable to survival as truth. Smile

Regards!

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12-05-2017, 05:49 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do you desire truth?

Many atheists seem to draw a distinction between their own desire for truth, and the desires of theists. They’ll likely add a serious of qualifiers, such as scientific, evidence based, objective, etc….. But one answer that I always have trouble getting an honest response about, is this:

Being that we are all biological creatures, and all desires and their appeasement are biological in nature, what biological desire is appeased by your desire for truth? And if you grant the premise here, that desires are biological, as well as the satisfaction of them, then truth is a means to an end. If truth makes you feel secure, secure in your marriage, than it’s a sense of security that you desire, and truth in this particular instance is a means of acquiring that. If it’s because truth offers survival advantages, it’s survival you desire, and truth is a means for that, etc..

So how would you explain your desire for truth, in relationship to you being a biological creature, and in particular, in regards to how you might distinguish your desire for truth, from theists, and religious folks in general?

Why do you personally desire scientific truths, what is this biologically appeasing for you?

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12-05-2017, 06:49 PM
Why do you desire truth?
(12-05-2017 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(10-05-2017 01:20 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Having skimmed through this thread, it seems like your primary concern is what system of thought brings you the most comfort. I would suggest that this is a very dangerous path to walk down. The truth is a very valuable thing, even if it means taking off rose coloured glasses.

As a pertinent example, let's suppose there is a suicide bomber operating under the pretense that Allah will grant him ten virgins in heaven upon blowing himself up for a Jihad. He may be very happy with this prospect. Now, if you successfully show him with basic skills of logic and reason where his belief system is flawed, and he accepts what you say, you may have destroyed his short term hope of virgins in paradise, but now he has the opportunity to build a new perspective, based on truth.

See what I'm saying?

Why is camouflage part of the animal kingdom? Why do poisonous berries grow bright and plump? Why don't blowfish have their spikes out all the time? Why do carnivores hide in the dark, waiting to spring? It's because deception can kill, knowing the truth can save and not knowing can be disastrous. The desire for truth, I would say, is indeed, biologically based. We simply have highly developed mental capabilities, so that our search for truth can be either metaphysical, which is the case for you, or empirical, which is the case for us.

Science and Empiricism are an entire exercise in finding what is true in fact. You are familiar with the scientific method? I hope so... because it has consistently yielded for us, truthful results since it's inception. I have a hypothesis, I test it, it proves false or true. If true, the scientific community immediately jumps on it trying to produce results contrary to mine. If results from multiple tests are corroborated, and the hypothesis can't be falsified, the hypothesis can move from prediction to theory. If not, it is discarded as false.

Regards!

Sorry, I had meant to reply when I first read your post, but I lost track of it.

No matter how many times I attempt to nip this objection in the butt, it just keeps reappearing. Truth, Untruth, Deceptions, etc…. have no intrinsic value. Any value afforded to it, is by contextualizing it, turning into a function for a particular aim, in world of limitless aims, limitless amounts of truths, and untruths.


Ok.. so the term is "Nip it in the BUD". Not Butt. You mess that up... the rest is meaningless.




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