Why do you desire truth?
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19-05-2017, 02:48 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(18-05-2017 11:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-05-2017 10:37 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Isnt that like saying: "I don't believe oxygen is true, because that makes me happy" despite it being factually true? Sometimes, Tomasia, it doesn't matter if you personally think something is true or not, because it either IS or ISN'T true, as the literal definition of True and False dictate.

My arguments are not about what is in fact true, my argument revolves around a commonly confessed desire for true beliefs, about true and false beliefs. My argument is in regards to the nature of belief, not about the nature of reality outside of those beliefs. Whether it personally matters to think something is true or not, for a variety of aims and purposes.


Quote:IMO, if you follow any organised religion, you're not 100% interested in what is true or not, because you're choosing to accept a whole lot of hot garbage on face value, which is just plain lunacy.

No one is 100% interested in truth. Truth is not an end in itself for biological creatures like ourselves. It’s a possible means for a variety of ends/goals. Our actual interested and desire are not for truth, but the ends we hope it serves. Such as our happiness, our sense of security, emotional stability, a sense of internal consistency, a desire to feel we’re authentic, etc… And the reality is that one may very well possess all these things, and have a false worldview.

To believe that any one of you desires truth for truth sakes is just non-sense, you desire truth for the sake of something else.
And it's started again... Facepalm

Seriously, have a word with yourself mate. This is just going around in circles whilst you try to sound clever the whole time, "but what about the true belief of...", shut up.

It doesn't matter WHAT you believe, there is only what is factually true or factually false, everything else is man driven thought process, that I don't subscribe too. I don't "believe" in anything, I only know what it actually/factually known to all people.

Belief = "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof." , so in other words, total bollocks.

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19-05-2017, 03:05 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
This is sounding like the scripts of those new alien movies, where they keep trying to imply belief on its own is something to be proud of, and that reality will bend around it somehow.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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19-05-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(16-05-2017 06:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-05-2017 07:57 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I don't think reality is aimless, meaningless, or has no value. Life is valuable and meaningful to me. Like you, I have a variety of aims and goals. The quality of my experiences always remind me life is worth living. I hope yours do to.

And hence the reason I qualified it as “intrinsically” meaningless. You can ascribe whatever subjective value or aim, but that doesn’t change my contention. But the value and aim, is one you subjectively give to something here, and not something which the object itself possess. A point to remember when attempting to make absolute value statements about reality, and truth.

You've flip flopped between intrinsically meaningful and intrinsically valuable. Either way, these are just word games. Something is meaningful or valuable in relation to some purpose. Only subjects can have such intentions so it's something of a category error to say there is no intrinsic value. But evolution has crafted us to act as if our survival matters. It has given us a natural purpose which is shared by the species. We objectively pursue survival. It's written in our brains and in our genes. So the question becomes, "Does anything have intrinsic value for the purpose of survival?" Those in this thread have been arguing that there are objective facts that matter for survival, so there are objectively valuable things from the perspective of our evolved drives. Beyond our evolved drives, in what situations does value arise? It doesn't. To say that there is no intrinsic value is to ignore the built-in drives of the species and the nature of value. Value is always value for some purpose or end, and the purpose of survival is universal to our species.

Second, truth is a matter of having beliefs correspond to facts of reality. Having accurate models of reality seems inescapably valuable to survival, even if it isn't envisaged as truth with a capital 'T'. So it would seem inescapable that truth has objective value for that purpose. In this, fitness and truth unite as being one and the same.
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19-05-2017, 07:01 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(18-05-2017 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 08:26 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  It seems clear to me that in any particular situation, without any specifics, having an accurate understanding of what is happening in that situation (and of the world in general) is going to put you in the best position, the vast majority of the time.

The best position in the vast majority of the times, are ones in which we’re programmed to act according with little to no thought. If what’s required is that your behave a certain way when approaching certain stimuli, it’s better if you’re able to respond in a programmed fashion, it’s more efficient than waiting for you to acquire true beliefs, and accurate perceptions of your situation. Evolution has long favored short-cuts, and efficiency. A point that's readily more clear in consideration of non-human animals, and life forms.

But it's also true that short-cuts tend to result in inflexible behavior. Evolution favors those that are equipped to survive in whatever environment they happen to find themselves in. Since environments change, selection can also favor more expensive coping mechanisms like rational thought. It's estimated that the great increase in brain size in the genus homo resulted from a period of rapid climate changes in Africa, giving birth to more complex brains. To focus solely on the short-cuts is to ignore the contribution to survival provided by both.

(18-05-2017 09:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Consider negatively bias, a considerable barrier when it comes to drawing accurate understandings and perceptions. If evolution favored objective minds, able to process information in a neutral manner, such biological tendencies are unlikely to exist.

I don't think you understand evolution very well.
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19-05-2017, 07:41 AM
Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 02:48 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(18-05-2017 11:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  My arguments are not about what is in fact true, my argument revolves around a commonly confessed desire for true beliefs, about true and false beliefs. My argument is in regards to the nature of belief, not about the nature of reality outside of those beliefs. Whether it personally matters to think something is true or not, for a variety of aims and purposes.



No one is 100% interested in truth. Truth is not an end in itself for biological creatures like ourselves. It’s a possible means for a variety of ends/goals. Our actual interested and desire are not for truth, but the ends we hope it serves. Such as our happiness, our sense of security, emotional stability, a sense of internal consistency, a desire to feel we’re authentic, etc… And the reality is that one may very well possess all these things, and have a false worldview.

To believe that any one of you desires truth for truth sakes is just non-sense, you desire truth for the sake of something else.
And it's started again... Facepalm

Seriously, have a word with yourself mate. This is just going around in circles whilst you try to sound clever the whole time, "but what about the true belief of...", shut up.

It doesn't matter WHAT you believe, there is only what is factually true or factually false, everything else is man driven thought process, that I don't subscribe too. I don't "believe" in anything, I only know what it actually/factually known to all people.

Belief = "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof." , so in other words, total bollocks.

Not sure where you got that definition of belief from, that's not the one I'm using:

be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

something one accepts as true or real


And there's not just what's factually true or not here, there's also your recognitions of the what's factually true or not here. Or in other words you belief.

Your silly definition aside, you believe a plethora of things. If you were to list everything you hold as true, as accurate representation of reality, those would be your beliefs, by definition.


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"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2017, 07:47 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Facts don't require any belief.

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19-05-2017, 08:02 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2017 08:09 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 07:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2017 02:48 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  And it's started again... Facepalm

Seriously, have a word with yourself mate. This is just going around in circles whilst you try to sound clever the whole time, "but what about the true belief of...", shut up.

It doesn't matter WHAT you believe, there is only what is factually true or factually false, everything else is man driven thought process, that I don't subscribe too. I don't "believe" in anything, I only know what it actually/factually known to all people.

Belief = "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof." , so in other words, total bollocks.

Not sure where you got that definition of belief from, that's not the one I'm using:

be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

something one accepts as true or real


And there's not just what's factually true or not here, there's also your recognitions of the what's factually true or not here. Or in other words you belief.

Your silly definition aside, you believe a plethora of things. If you were to list everything you hold as true, as accurate representation of reality, those would be your beliefs, by definition.


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My silly definition?

Google "define: belief" and that's what comes up. Secondary meanings include "something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion." and "trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)."

What it seems to me is you're saying: A person can pick and choose what is real, dependant on their views on life.

What I'm saying is: That's complete horse shit, because that's not the definition of True or False. Having "belief" in something doesn't mean that it IS true, it just means that your personally "think" that it is. You don't need to search for truth, you just have to open yourself up to the possibility that what you "believe" is absolute garbage.

Those of us in the real world, outside of religion, only go on the literal definition of what is true of false, and nothing else. And even then, a decent person won't take anything on face value, they'll be research and so on, until it's confirmed.

Again its one of the "Well I think this" instead of "the entire world operates on what IS true and what ISN'T, not what you believe to be true or false", there is no such thing as "false truth" only people being pillocks and not knowing what the bloody hell they are talking about.

Now give it a rest will you. You're not getting anywhere other that metaphorically recreating the scence in National Lampoons European Vacation where he gets stuck on the roundabout for 8 hours. Pages and pages of total nonsensical bullshit.

Honestly. Facepalm

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19-05-2017, 08:12 AM
Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 08:02 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(19-05-2017 07:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not sure where you got that definition of belief from, that's not the one I'm using:

be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

something one accepts as true or real


And there's not just what's factually true or not here, there's also your recognitions of the what's factually true or not here. Or in other words you belief.

Your silly definition aside, you believe a plethora of things. If you were to list everything you hold as true, as accurate representation of reality, those would be your beliefs, by definition.


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My silly definition?

Google "define: belief" and that's what comes up. Secondary meanings include "something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion." and "trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)."

What it seems to me is you're saying: A person can pick and choose what is real, dependant on their views on life.

What I'm saying is: That's complete horse shit, because that's not the definition of True or False. Having "belief" in something doesn't mean that it IS true, it just means that your personally "think" that it is. You don't need to search for truth, you just have to open yourself up to the possibility that what you "believe" is absolute garbage.

Those of us in the real world, outside of religion, only go on the literal definition of what is true of false, and nothing else. And even then, a decent person won't take anything on face value, they'll be research and so on, until it's confirmed.

Again its one of the "Well I think this" instead of "the entire world operates on what IS true and what ISN'T, not what you believe to be true or false", there is no such thing as "false truth" only people being pillocks and not knowing what the bloody hell they are talking about.

Now give it a rest will you. You're not getting anywhere other that metaphorically recreating the scence in National Lampoons European Vacation where he gets stuck on the roundabout for 8 hours. Pages and pages of total nonsensical bullshit.

Honestly. Facepalm


An entire post dedicated to a series of straw-man. I never claimed that a person can choose what's real, or they can choose what they believe. All of which are not matters of choice. I didn't choose to believe my religious worldview is true, i just do, for factors well outside of choice.

My arguments are about beliefs, not about what's true, but what one believes is true. You on the other hand keep repeating "who cares about beliefs, let's talk about what actually true irregardless of what we believe", if that's the case you're in the wrong thread, and shitting out strawmen in mine.

I also defined what i mean by the term "belief" which clearly is not the definition you had in mind.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2017, 08:14 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 08:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2017 08:02 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  My silly definition?

Google "define: belief" and that's what comes up. Secondary meanings include "something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion." and "trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something)."

What it seems to me is you're saying: A person can pick and choose what is real, dependant on their views on life.

What I'm saying is: That's complete horse shit, because that's not the definition of True or False. Having "belief" in something doesn't mean that it IS true, it just means that your personally "think" that it is. You don't need to search for truth, you just have to open yourself up to the possibility that what you "believe" is absolute garbage.

Those of us in the real world, outside of religion, only go on the literal definition of what is true of false, and nothing else. And even then, a decent person won't take anything on face value, they'll be research and so on, until it's confirmed.

Again its one of the "Well I think this" instead of "the entire world operates on what IS true and what ISN'T, not what you believe to be true or false", there is no such thing as "false truth" only people being pillocks and not knowing what the bloody hell they are talking about.

Now give it a rest will you. You're not getting anywhere other that metaphorically recreating the scence in National Lampoons European Vacation where he gets stuck on the roundabout for 8 hours. Pages and pages of total nonsensical bullshit.

Honestly. Facepalm


An entire post dedicated to a series of straw-man. I never claimed that a person can choose what's real, or they can choose what they believe. All of which are not matters of choice. I didn't choose to believe my religious worldview is true, i just do, for factors well outside of choice.

My arguments are about beliefs, not about what's true, but what one believes is true. You on the other hand keep repeating "who cares about beliefs, let's talk about what actually true irregardless of what we believe", if that's the case you're in the wrong thread, and shitting out strawmen in mine.

I also defined what i mean by the term "belief" which clearly is not the definition you had in mind.


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19-05-2017, 08:16 AM
Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 07:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  Facts don't require any belief.


If you hold that something is a fact, that is a belief. I understand some people like to draw a distinction between belief and knowing, but knowing is just a form of belief.

Again the definition of belief being used here is:
"something one accepts as true or real"



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"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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