Why do you desire truth?
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19-05-2017, 08:19 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2017 08:27 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(18-05-2017 11:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No one is 100% interested in truth. Truth is not an end in itself for biological creatures like ourselves. It’s a possible means for a variety of ends/goals. Our actual interested and desire are not for truth, but the ends we hope it serves. Such as our happiness, our sense of security, emotional stability, a sense of internal consistency, a desire to feel we’re authentic, etc… And the reality is that one may very well possess all these things, and have a false worldview.

Interesting. The dude who claimed he was a Christian is actually a Utilitarian, (of course he doesn't know what that means, or why it's called that, or what's wrong with that), and with no data AT ALL, projects that philosophy onto every one.

"Our actual *interested* (WTAF does THAT mean), and desire are not for truth bla bla bla ..."
Seriously man, take an online/correspondence course in English. Facepalm

Quote:My arguments are not about what is in fact true, my argument revolves around a commonly confessed desire for true beliefs, about true and false beliefs. My argument is in regards to the nature of belief, not about the nature of reality outside of those beliefs. Whether it personally matters to think something is true or not, for a variety of aims and purposes.

You made that shit up, and have NOT ONE reference for that assertion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-05-2017, 08:24 AM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2017 08:34 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Right then, lets.....BR-BR-BREAK IT DOWN NOW:


(19-05-2017 08:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  An entire post dedicated to a series of straw-man. I never claimed that a person can choose what's real, or they can choose what they believe. All of which are not matters of choice. I didn't choose to believe my religious worldview is true, i just do, for factors well outside of choice.
Presumably because you were born into it, like so many others?

Quote:My arguments are about beliefs, not about what's true, but what one believes is true. You on the other hand keep repeating "who cares about beliefs, let's talk about what actually true irregardless of what we believe", if that's the case you're in the wrong thread, and shitting out strawmen in mine.
But why is "what on believes to be true" important? I know of people that "believe" the earth is flat. It isn't, so whats the point of this thread? Atheist's don't "believe" anything, we only go by what is true and what isn't, nothing more, nothing less. This is because, through the scientific method, some things can [and have] change over the years in how we peceive this information. (Science is not something to "believe in" either, because it a method, not a belief system.)

Quote:I also defined what i mean by the term "belief" which clearly is not the definition you had in mind.
Yes, YOU defined it. I got my definition from the most popular search engine in the world that has a definition system built into it, which clearely shows your definition is incorrect, [false], as you missed off the "a firmly held opinion" part, which is carried in the actual definition.

Belief in something IS basically opinion. Some people "believe" in flying saucers, just as some people "believe" in deities....its exactly the same. What you are wanting to talk about "not about what's true, but what one believes is true.", is total garbage mate. You might as well have this moved to the conspiricy theories seciton, because a lot of people believe 9/11 was an inside job...that doesn't mean they are correct. Hitler "believed" he was doing the right thing...be he wasn't. Can you see a trend here?


And for quick reference:

Your definition -
Quote:be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

something one accepts as true or real

The ACTUAL one:

Quote:belief
bɪˈliːf/Submit
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"his belief in extraterrestrial life"
something one accepts as true or real;a firmly held opinion.
"we're prepared to fight for our beliefs"

EDIT: Honestly sorry to keep ranting about it, but you dont know the definition of the words TRUE, FALSE or BELIEF. It's just pissing me off you can't understand how words work.

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19-05-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Okay wait. I'll just continue a conversation with myself a little here.

If believing in a load of religious stuff makes you survive well and so live longer, then it would be pragmatic. (I'm not saying this is true at all, but it's clearly a claim being made.) But it would only be pragmatic if your beliefs are actually false, because if they were true, you'd want to get hit by a car through stupidity as soon as possible so you can get killed and go to heaven.

Therefor you really know your beliefs are false, or else you wouldn't take this approach. So you don't really believe them after all.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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19-05-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 08:24 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Right then, lets.....BR-BR-BREAK IT DOWN NOW:


(19-05-2017 08:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  An entire post dedicated to a series of straw-man. I never claimed that a person can choose what's real, or they can choose what they believe. All of which are not matters of choice. I didn't choose to believe my religious worldview is true, i just do, for factors well outside of choice.
Presumably because you were born into it, like so many others?

Quote:My arguments are about beliefs, not about what's true, but what one believes is true. You on the other hand keep repeating "who cares about beliefs, let's talk about what actually true irregardless of what we believe", if that's the case you're in the wrong thread, and shitting out strawmen in mine.
But why is "what on believes to be true" important? I know of people that "believe" the earth is flat. It isn't, so whats the point of this thread? Atheist's don't "believe" anything, we only go by what is true and what isn't, nothing more, nothing less. This is because, through the scientific method, some things can [and have] change over the years in how we peceive this information. (Science is not something to "believe in" either, because it a method, not a belief system.)

Quote:I also defined what i mean by the term "belief" which clearly is not the definition you had in mind.
Yes, YOU defined it. I got my definition from the most popular search engine in the world that has a definition system built into it, which clearely shows your definition is incorrect, [false], as you missed off the "a firmly held opinion" part, which is carried in the actual definition.

Belief in something IS basically opinion. Some people "believe" in flying saucers, just as some people "believe" in deities....its exactly the same. What you are wanting to talk about "not about what's true, but what one believes is true.", is total garbage mate. You might as well have this moved to the conspiricy theories seciton, because a lot of people believe 9/11 was an inside job...that doesn't mean they are correct. Hitler "believed" he was doing the right thing...be he wasn't. Can you see a trend here?


And for quick reference:

Your definition -
Quote:be·lief
bəˈlēf/
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

something one accepts as true or real

The ACTUAL one:

Quote:belief
bɪˈliːf/Submit
noun
noun: belief; plural noun: beliefs
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"his belief in extraterrestrial life"
something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion.
"we're prepared to fight for our beliefs"

EDIT: Honestly sorry to keep ranting about it, but you dont know the definition of the words TRUE, FALSE or BELIEF. It's just pissing me off you can understand how words work.

> Indeed, one must distinguish between rational beliefs (supported by evidence) and irrational beliefs (supported by faith or mere opinion).

> A rational belief must depend on certain criteria:

1.) It must be based upon factual evidence.
2.) It must be capable of rational demonstration or argument.
3.) It cannot be self-contradictory.
4.) It cannot contradict previously validated knowledge with which it has been integrated.
5.) It cannot be closed to rational scrutiny.
6.) It cannot be absurd.
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19-05-2017, 08:58 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 07:01 AM)big green mouth Wrote:  But it's also true that short-cuts tend to result in inflexible behavior. Evolution favors those that are equipped to survive in whatever environment they happen to find themselves in. Since environments change, selection can also favor more expensive coping mechanisms like rational thought. It's estimated that the great increase in brain size in the genus homo resulted from a period of rapid climate changes in Africa, giving birth to more complex brains. To focus solely on the short-cuts is to ignore the contribution to survival provided by both.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, though I’d add:

It depends on the short-cut. A short-cut that lends itself to a single temporary environment, is less useful than one that can offer advantages in a plethora of environments. And natural selection doesn’t posses foresight, it doesn’t consider future environments an organism might find itself in, but just the threats in it’s immediate environment. It’s short-sighted and myopic. If that particular adaptation lended itself beneficial to multiple environments, that’s great. If it proves detrimental in another environment, then the life forms in question might be eradicated. If the effects were neutral in another environment, it might live on indefinitely.

And if we stop thinking of ourselves as the center of evolution, evolution doesn’t favor rational minds at all. Mindless life forms, life forms that possess very little of anything resembling consciousness, out number ones that don’t considerably, and will very well outlive lifeforms with minds like ours in the long run.

Quote:Consider negatively bias, a considerable barrier when it comes to drawing accurate understandings and perceptions. If evolution favored objective minds, able to process information in a neutral manner, such biological tendencies are unlikely to exist.


I don't think you understand evolution very well.

And what exactly do you disagree with in the above statement here?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-05-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 08:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  If believing in a load of religious stuff makes you survive well and so live longer, then it would be pragmatic.

Well, it does help if you belong to religious communities, but that is social proof rather than real-world proof.
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19-05-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
"Certainly, anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices." (Voltaire) Consider
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19-05-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(19-05-2017 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-05-2017 07:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  Facts don't require any belief.


If you hold that something is a fact, that is a belief. I understand some people like to draw a distinction between belief and knowing, but knowing is just a form of belief.

Again the definition of belief being used here is:
"something one accepts as true or real"



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Belief is holding something to be true, whether it is the truth or not.

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19-05-2017, 08:26 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Yeah... outside of our own abstract systems, we can never know anything in the strictest sense. We can feel as sure as we want, we can make whatever arguments we want and present whatever evidence we want, but we can still be wrong.

So beliefs, and what we call knowledge about reality, can never be more than our attempts at approximating the hard facts. Requiring knowledge to be true in order to be knowledge knocks everything down. It only makes sense to require knowledge about reality to be demonstrably, reliably, apparently true.

I can talk this shit all day. I enjoy it. My wife doesn't enjoy hearing it.

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19-05-2017, 09:28 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
Bucky Ball Wrote:The dude who claimed he was a Christian is actually a Utilitarian

I spent so much time writing out responses only to realize he was lying for Jesus, confused for Jesus, or not a Christian. Sad

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