Why do you desire truth?
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09-05-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do you desire truth?

Many atheists seem to draw a distinction between their own desire for truth, and the desires of theists. They’ll likely add a serious of qualifiers, such as scientific, evidence based, objective, etc…..

I suppose you will need to explain what you mean by truth.
In general however, I've never drawn a distinction between anyone's different desires for truth. It is possible that the process by which any particular individual may use to get at a personal truth may differ but, human beings remain generally the same.

(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But one answer that I always have trouble getting an honest response about, is this:

Being that we are all biological creatures, and all desires and their appeasement are biological in nature, what biological desire is appeased by your desire for truth? And if you grant the premise here, that desires are biological, as well as the satisfaction of them, then truth is a means to an end. If truth makes you feel secure, secure in your marriage, than it’s a sense of security that you desire, and truth in this particular instance is a means of acquiring that. If it’s because truth offers survival advantages, it’s survival you desire, and truth is a means for that, etc..

Honest response ... ? It is possible you aren't honestly listening ... maybe you only hear what you want to hear. Wink

As for biology, the human brain is part of our biological make up. Many different parts of the brain are stimulated by our various reactions and in turn, give off chemicals which cause our bodies to feel things like excitement or cause our emotions to experience things like sadness, etc.,. Curiosity can be quite stimulating. As can a subtle feeling, such as relief. I suppose you would want to address how the brain connects to the conscious mind. Though again, I don't know what sort of truth you are bent on discussing.

(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So how would you explain your desire for truth, in relationship to you being a biological creature, and in particular, in regards to how you might distinguish your desire for truth, from theists, and religious folks in general?


As I said, define more clearly what you mean by desire for truth. And again, I don't categorize human traits into "theist" and "atheist". Do you? Do you think people should? Do you separate people like that?

(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why do you personally desire scientific truths, what is this biologically appeasing for you?

I find science as stimulating as I find painting. I find poetry stimulating. I find sex stimulating. I find music stimulating. I find many different creative processes stimulating. I find eating stimulating. Human neurological/biological stimulation are too numerous to continue ...

Again, you may want to address the brain - body - conscious mind connection. There, I think you will find better understanding of others and you won't have to ask vague questions. Also, you won't have to separate human beings into categories according to traits that everyone obviously posesses.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-05-2017, 01:07 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 09:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So for you, and perhaps the atheists you know, you just wanna get through life happy and healthy, if any particular truth is conducive to that then it matters, if it doesn't contribute to your health and happiness it's irrelevant.

Being an atheist might contribute to your own personal health and happiness, while being a theist might contribute to someone's else personal health and happiness. The truth of either doesn't really matter.

At least this would seem to be the case, if health and happiness are all that actually matter.

Well, if christee™ fucks want to make the rest of the world healthy & happy, they need to fuck off outside planned parenthood and health clinics. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-05-2017, 01:10 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 01:07 PM)kim Wrote:  Well, if christee™ fucks want to make the rest of the world healthy & happy, they need to fuck off

Fixt

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09-05-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 08:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So how would you explain your desire for truth, in relationship to you being a biological creature, and in particular, in regards to how you might distinguish your desire for truth, from theists, and religious folks in general?

Well, first of all, I wouldn't draw a distinction between theists and atheists. Both are expressions of human nature, which in general, draw upon the same resources. Second, we have to distinguish between a cultural valuing of truth for its own sake, and how individuals in and of themselves interface with truth. On the individual level, I would say that we don't desire truth so much as we desire consistency. We want our world to "make sense" in terms of what we believe. This is the foundation of the phenomena of cognitive dissonance, being a feeling of anxiety generated by an inconsistency in our beliefs. We're pattern seeking animals. We don't so much seek for the pattern for its own sake, but for patterns which reduce the anxiety we feel in apprehending inconsistency and dissonance. I think this explains many things. Why the theist is comfortable inhabiting a belief system without a lot of evidence, the prevalence of DIY theology, the multiplicity of supernatural belief, and so on. The theist, like the atheist, is trying to maintain order, not pursue truth for its own sake. Truth, I think, is secondary as a biological concern. The only real difference tends to be in the metaphysical truths embedded in each worldview. One is rooted in naturalism and science, the other rooted in folk psychology and supernaturalism. This also explains the difficulty many people experience in transiting from one worldview to the other. For some, the movement is experienced as relief, but many experience living with conflicting intuitions about reality as deeply emotionally disturbing. Theism and atheism reflect very fundamental concerns about our experience as human beings. It's not surprising that a shift from one to the other should generate such anxiety. Positing that we desire truth rather than consistency, I think, renders that fact somewhat mysterious.
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09-05-2017, 01:59 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 09:33 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Are you saying you arent interested in (whatever your personal definition is) "truth"? That would explain a lot of your intentional dishonesty. I am not kidding/joking/tongue in cheek.

If you really dont know why truth is something worth looking for in your life then its pointless to even begin a conversation with you. You might as well ask why i bother breathing. Facepalm

I am interested in truth, and not only do I believe it's worth looking for, but that it's worth sacrificing everything for. But then again I have a religious outlook on truth, where truth has a moral end, sort of like Plato's Good, in the allegory of the cave. That truth is a directional, and not some aimless fact of the world. That's it the pure ore, at the end of dark mine. This could all be superstitious non-sense of course, religious Kool-aid, but absent of such a belief as to why any individual would seek it, is not very clear, hence why the question is proposed to non-religious types here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 09:13 AM)jennybee Wrote:  We don't all live in reality. People who are delusional are not living in reality.
in the pedantic sense that Tommy likely means it, we all exist in the same reality regardless of our interpretations, including delusional ones. I would say "we don't all deal in reality" would be a more accurate way to put it.

Reality has really nice parts (pleasant sunshiny spring days, hot coffee in the morning just as I prefer it) that are way easier to acknowledge and deal with that seem really not so nice parts (I am mortal, invisible beings and realms are highly unlikely to be real / true) and parts that generally are not so nice, period, even in retrospect (my wife / son / lover / BFF just died / contracted a horrible disease / became estranged from me, etc). Religion is all about avoiding the nasty bits in favor of a structured fantasy with made-up rules. In fact, I just read an article* that pointed out, with some justification I think, that religions are the original virtual reality game.

* The article is actually about what life might be like in a future economy where AI takes over most work and most humans don't need to work, but bear with it, it gets to the point I mentioned and gives real-world examples -- it's a provocative read.
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09-05-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 09:33 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Are you saying you arent interested in (whatever your personal definition is) "truth"? That would explain a lot of your intentional dishonesty. I am not kidding/joking/tongue in cheek.

If you really dont know why truth is something worth looking for in your life then its pointless to even begin a conversation with you. You might as well ask why i bother breathing. Facepalm

I am interested in truth, and not only do I believe it's worth looking for, but that it's worth sacrificing everything for. But then again I have a religious outlook on truth, where truth has a moral end, sort of like Plato's Good, in the allegory of the cave. That truth is a directional, and not some aimless fact of the world. That's it the pure ore, at the end of dark mine. This could all be superstitious non-sense of course, religious Kool-aid, but absent of such a belief as to why any individual would seek it, is not very clear, hence why the question is proposed to non-religious types here.

Like I said you wouldn't know the real truth if it fucked you in the mouth mate. Drinking Beverage
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09-05-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 01:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 09:33 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Are you saying you arent interested in (whatever your personal definition is) "truth"? That would explain a lot of your intentional dishonesty. I am not kidding/joking/tongue in cheek.

If you really dont know why truth is something worth looking for in your life then its pointless to even begin a conversation with you. You might as well ask why i bother breathing. Facepalm

I am interested in truth, and not only do I believe it's worth looking for, but that it's worth sacrificing everything for. But then again I have a religious outlook on truth, where truth has a moral end, sort of like Plato's Good, in the allegory of the cave. That truth is a directional, and not some aimless fact of the world. That's it the pure ore, at the end of dark mine. This could all be superstitious non-sense of course, religious Kool-aid, but absent of such a belief as to why any individual would seek it, is not very clear, hence why the question is proposed to non-religious types here.
Worth sacrificing everything for? Including your interest in the truth?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

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09-05-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 01:22 PM)big green mouth Wrote:  Well, first of all, I wouldn't draw a distinction between theists and atheists. Both are expressions of human nature, which in general, draw upon the same resources. Second, we have to distinguish between a cultural valuing of truth for its own sake, and how individuals in and of themselves interface with truth. On the individual level, I would say that we don't desire truth so much as we desire consistency. We want our world to "make sense" in terms of what we believe. This is the foundation of the phenomena of cognitive dissonance, being a feeling of anxiety generated by an inconsistency in our beliefs. We're pattern seeking animals. We don't so much seek for the pattern for its own sake, but for patterns which reduce the anxiety we feel in apprehending inconsistency and dissonance. I think this explains many things. Why the theist is comfortable inhabiting a belief system without a lot of evidence, the prevalence of DIY theology, the multiplicity of supernatural belief, and so on. The theist, like the atheist, is trying to maintain order, not pursue truth for its own sake. Truth, I think, is secondary as a biological concern. The only real difference tends to be in the metaphysical truths embedded in each worldview. One is rooted in naturalism and science, the other rooted in folk psychology and supernaturalism. This also explains the difficulty many people experience in transiting from one worldview to the other. For some, the movement is experienced as relief, but many experience living with conflicting intuitions about reality as deeply emotionally disturbing. Theism and atheism reflect very fundamental concerns about our experience as human beings. It's not surprising that a shift from one to the other should generate such anxiety. Positing that we desire truth rather than consistency, I think, renders that fact somewhat mysterious.

I think I agree with you. That we all seek an internal consistency, not just a perspective on reality, but a perspective that allows us to find a place in it. None of it has to be true of course, but we all have to believe it's true. Our consistency depends on such a belief, whether ultimately true of false. Trump supporters, and Bernie bros hold competing perceptions of reality, and who they are depends on these perceptions. In order to be a certain way, we have to see the world in a certain way.
At least that's my observation.

And if it as you say, that it's consistency that a man seeks, and not necessarily truth, a point I would agree with you on. That this desire for consistency is psychological in nature, revealing more about the nature of the person, then nature of reality outside of them.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Why do you desire truth?
(09-05-2017 02:08 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Like I said you wouldn't know the real truth if it fucked you in the mouth mate. Drinking Beverage

If not me, then who?

Our roots have billions of years in common, our diversions very short lived. We're more a reflection of each other than not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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